Another AVE MARIA setting, in case of interest ...
  • There must have been something in the air during recent times that has prompted people, independently of one another, to undertake AVE MARIA settings. In case this 2013 setting might be of interest ...

    Unlike Mr. Basden's setting mentioned on the present forum not long ago, this one has organ accompaniment. I'm trying it out on Wirripang, the publishing house based in New South Wales, which has issued various works of mine in the past (further details are at http://www.wirripang.com.au/authors/r-j-stove). Wirripang has, so to speak, "first refusal" on any composition by me, so if it does accept this piece - I won't know for several weeks yet whether it has decided to accept it or to reject it - then I shall need to remove this thread.

    Anyhow, here, for what it's worth, is the PDF version of the score. (No recording, I'm afraid; but the music director at a local Anglican Ordinariate church has expressed enthusiasm for the notion of using it sometime.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for this, RJ, and the link to your other works. I could never compose anything, but I sure love to try out new music.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    RJ, I just played the Ave Maria a few times on my piano (wish I could try the registration you suggested!) and it am so touched by this. Very gentle and plaintive and reminds me of a young Mary at Nazareth. The way the ending trails away suggests that the story is not finished.

    My 11-year old daughter wrote these words down as I was playing:

    melancholy
    hopeful
    longing
    wistful
    seeking
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Many thanks, JulieColl, for your kind words. I remember reading as a kid an interview which Robert Lowell had given (he was still alive when I read it) about how he desperately tried, in his specifically religious poems, to avoid glibness: he wanted his faith to sound effortful and hard-won. So do I with mine, such as it is. Hence the lack of a formal, obvious harmonic conclusion in the Ave Maria's last measures.

    I also wanted organists to avoid choosing stops that would sound gluey, sticky, and over-sentimental in the context (e.g. Vox Humana, Gamba). Besides, by no means all organs hereabouts have these stops anyway, even if I had sought them. But nearly every organ, however simple and small, has a basic Swell Gedackt or some other Swell flute.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    RJ, we read through your simple but sumptuous setting (sibilant city) along with David Basden's from Adam's article tonight. We're going to add both to our Nativity concert and sing David's this Sunday, your's 4 Advent.
    We were singing and I thought "Heck, RJ writes like me" and my wife reminded me of an Agnus Dei of thirty years past, but the sublime choral treatment and organ, particularly the ending....so pictureseque and peaceful. Congratulations.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Really enjoyed playing through this, even with my dodgy e-piano and dubious voice. (I wish I knew more about organ registration so as to imagine the intended sound.)

    I love the way that the listener—or, at least, this listener—has no idea where it's heading, but that it all sounds so clear and reasonable after the fact. To me it all unfolds in such a gentle, organic, unforced way. Congrats!
    Thanked by 2R J Stove CHGiffen
  • @melofluent – lovely! Where are you based?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    David, we're in Fresno Diocese, 40 miles south of Fresno.
    Thanked by 1DWBasden
  • And yet further generous comments! I'm most grateful.

    Re Mr. Basden's remark concerning organ registration: the Gedackt stop is a flute stop, similar to (although more frequently found than) a Gemshorn stop. Sometimes it's 16-foot - i.e. it sounds an octave lower than written - but I've specified an 8-foot stop, i.e. sounding as written. I think there are YouTube clips with Gedackt-only organ playing, though my computer isn't letting me download them just at present.

    In particular I'm delighted to learn that the piece sounds unpredictable but, after the fact, reasonable and clear. That's exactly what I aimed at.

    One of my fave composers is Hindemith, who again and again (not least in the slow movement of his Third Organ Sonata, all three movements of which I've been playing lately) puts the listener through fierce chromatic paces, so that you wonder "How are we going to get out of this harmonic jungle alive?". And then, eureka: at the very end comes a simple A-major triad, or whatever, which you would never anticipate when you first hear it. When you go back and examine the sheet-music, of course, the A-major triad grows logically out of the foregoing relentless, acidic dissonances. But there's nothing so blatant as an actual cadence to introduce the triad.


    Thanked by 2DWBasden CHGiffen
  • Apparently this video is demonstrating some samples ... anyway, it gives an idea of the timbre. ("Chiffy" seems to be an appropriate term.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkKdw2HZ0fc

    Is this sound realistic enough to actual organists?
    Thanked by 2JulieColl R J Stove
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I remember reading as a kid an interview which Robert Lowell had given (he was still alive when I read it) about how he desperately tried, in his specifically religious poems, to avoid glibness: he wanted his faith to sound effortful and hard-won.


    I think you're very much onto something here, RJ. Renaissance settings of the Ave Maria, the Gregorian chant version itself and contemporary settings like yours and David Basden's are packed with emotion and drama and yet, at least speaking for myself, they are far more appealing than settings of the same hymn from the Romantic age, or from the turn of the century or from the Praise and Worship era which are in contrast dripping with sentiment.

    What is it about the former compositions that lead one to an entirely different, more cerebral and exalted plane while the latter compositions strike one as mawkish and cloying and earthbound?
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. I just want to add that in answer to my own question above, I've come to the conclusion that religious music that wears its heart on its sleeve, so to speak, and does not allow the listener room to explore and meditate and form his/her own conclusions is not as spiritually satisfying as music that is more abstruse and retains a sense of mystery.

    I would place Catholic devotional music such as one might find in a c. 1900's St. Basil Hymnal, music popular in the 1950's and Praise and Worship music in the category of religious music that has a pre-set, narrowly defined emotional impact closely tied to the age in which it was conceived and so necessarily has a short shelf life.

    Music that is emotionally restrained and not immediately accessible, on the other hand, requires the listener to make some effort, and the result is usually far more rewarding and ultimately of more universal appeal. It's exciting to see contemporary composers like our two Australian friends and others like Kevin Allen developing, as I said before, a more cerebral and exalted genre of religious music that avoids the heavy emotional baggage of the last century.

    Hope this makes sense. I'm still struggling to figure this all out.
  • Thanks again, JulieColl. While I don't know the St. Basil Hymnal, I must admit, whenever I hear something like "Sweet Sacrament Divine" (which presumably is in that hymnal) it gives me the screaming ab-dabs. It is the epitome of everything I've tried to avoid in my own stuff.

    I like the Ahlborn-Galanti clip, now that I can play it on this computer. Yes, that's a typical Gedackt sound.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,738
    Hi RJ:

    This looks quite interesting. Do you have a MIDI simulation?
  • Sorry, Framcis, no, I haven't. Am not even sure how I'd obtain such a thing.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,190
    Often music notation programs can produce a MIDI simulation file along with a PDF score.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Being that there is no RH, what are your thoughts on using this as an organ instrumental, with a Celeste/chorus stop playing the melody and the LH&pedal on gedackt?
  • Hadn't thought of it as a possible organ instrumental, but maybe ... still, there is a RH part on the last page. Thanks, Chonak, for tip-off regarding music notation programs. I'll look up Sibelius to that end.

    Update, three hours later: Right, have just wrestled the Sibelius instruction manual to the ground and thereby worked out how to save my score in MIDI format. The result has somehow turned the organ part into a piano timbre that wouldn't have been out of place in a Chicago tavern circa 1905, while simultaneously the vocal parts have become a vague indeterminate gargling (not always in the right octave, the bass part now resembling a contrabassoon), but we have, after a fashion, lift-off.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,190
    Perhaps the choice of instruments can be specified to give you a simulated organ sound in place of the piano effect.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    When you set up the score did you specify organ? It's labelled as such, so that's odd that its played back as a piano. What version of Sibelius are you using?

    Also, I've found it helpful for playback purposes to write organ parts as a flute part (you can turn off the colors for notes out of range, if that's on by default). The midi setting for organ, at least in Sibelius 7, is a "full organ" sound. Since you want a gedackt, I'd suggest going into instruments (shortcut is the "i" key), adding some flutes, changing the clefs for LH and pedal parts (and renaming them, then copying the organ part into the flute lines. Go back to instruments and delete the organ from the score. If you've renamed the instruments and copied the music over, it will look exactly the same as it does now, but play back with a sound more similar to your intent.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Update:
    David Basden's AM was a total transcendant joy this morning, The huge painting of OLOG behind us gave a pretext as well as OLIC tomorrow. So, RJ, we very much look forward to concert premieres of both settings next Sunday afternoon at our joint.
  • That is most kind of you, sir. I am very pleased that David Basden's work was as well received in performance as it deserved to be. I am honored that my own might be considered alongside it.
    Thanked by 1DWBasden
  • Have just heard from the New South Wales publishing firm to which I offered this AVE MARIA, and which has rejected it ("not up to your usual standard"). Oh well.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    So sorry to hear this, RJ. Have you tried J.W. Pepper? They offer some contemporary sacred music, from what I can tell. Keep composing whatever you do!

    Have you ever tried alternating chant with polyphonic/choral verses? I'm very fond of that genre.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • No, haven't tried J.W. Pepper yet, JulieColl. There are a few other publishing firms in England and Ameica that might be feasible - I'm not sure where J.W. Pepper is based - so I shan't give up on the piece quite yet. (Wirripang has "first refusal" on my output, but if it rejects something I presume I have a perfect legal right to offer it elsewhere.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    JWP is a distributor, not a publisher, I understand.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,190
    I converted the MIDI file above to simulate organ and vocal sounds.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    For the USA, Santa Barbara Music Press is adventurous.
    RJ, We weren't able to prepare your AM for our last Sunday's concert, but we're going to keep it on the front burner.
    The only thing that might discourage for-profit hard copy publishers I imagine might be the brevity and the focus upon the soprano line throughout. That said, musically sublime and gorgeous. You could try Gary P. at CanticaNova.com or maybe Sheet Music Plus and offer them a per copy deal.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Muchos gracias, Chonak and Melofluent and Adam Wood.
  • "Not up to your usual standard" – huh!? Subtle as a brick!

    Hope your Ave Maria gets a better reception elsewhere!
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Yes, indeed, RJ! You can count me as a fan of the Australian School of composers. : )
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,964
    RJ, I recently played the Premier Kyrie - Plein Jeu from the Messe du Sixiesme Ton by Raison in a concert. I used your YouTube video as a study guide for that piece. Everyone raved about the piece, but how could they not?
  • Thanks, CharlesW, for your comment. It's a lovely piece of Raison's - I'm still amazed that I was the first person to have recorded those extracts from the Mass on YouTube, though others might have done so since 2011, for all I know - and I'm glad that my recording was of use to someone.

    The organ on which I recorded that music is a solid, no-frills, three-manual Australian instrument (very Germanic in temper with heavy key and pedal action) made by a local builder called George Fincham, who flourished in the late 19th century. You might think it would be hopeless for French baroque stuff. But it's surprising how Gallic-baroque such a machine can sound if you choose the stops properly. (In case anybody wonders, I was playing from the very old Guilmant-Pirro edition of Raison's material, so if you want the ultimate in cutting-edge scholarship, look elsewhere.)

    It's also surprising how versatile that particular organ can be for other types of compositions. I once played Hindemith's Third Organ Sonata on it in concert, and it gave an extraordinarily good imitation of the exact chromium-plated, neoclassic, Bauhaus-architecture sort of tone which Hindemith clearly wanted.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,964
    I liked the organ. Thanks for the information, since I wondered who built it.
  • Some of Fincham's other organs strike me as near-worthless (no proper swell pedal etc) but he could do a good job when he wanted to. Since to my knowledge not a single Cavaille-Coll instrument ever reached Australia - alas, this keyboard won't let me do e-acutes - you do the best you can, faute de mieux, and you hope that the clergy don't know the word Orgelbewegung except maybe as a crossword-puzzle clue ..,
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    RJ, it's inspiring to see how much you have obviously researched the life of the composers whose music you play as in the case of Hindemith above.

    Have you done much research on Frescobaldi and Merulo? I've become very fond of both, and esp. of Claude Merulo da Correggio lately. His organ toccatas---they're not difficult---are so delicate and unusual. Little excerpts are very nice as preludes and postludes since they are lengthy.

    I like his Toccata Nono in the Fourth Tone, in particular the exquisite theme which begins at the F5 chord in the first measure on the second page (p. 52).
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Sorry, Merulo's barely more than a name to me, though I believe at least one local campus's music library contains organ pieces by him.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,738
    Here is an mp3 of Mr. Stove's piece. It is truly simple and stunning! Bravo!

    (I love the part where the organ drops out and the voices are a cappella for a few bars)

    RJ... I took the liberty to add a 16' to the pedal part. Hope that is OK.

    UPDATE: ahhh.... I just noticed you had a registration that included a 16 in the ped.

    listen to simulation
  • Agree 100%. Beautiful!
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Thank you sirs. Yes, Francis, indeed the original calls for a 16-foot pedal part (coupled to manual) so your instinct was correct even before you saw the registration pointers at the beginning.

    I don't know what actually made me cut off the organ part at m. 26, but as soon as I got the idea of doing so, I thought it seemed ... apposite. Only the sopranos, of all the voices, have a note more than a semitone different from the last note in the preceding measure, so I don't think any chorister could complain about intonation problems.

    The single most valuable composition lesson I ever learned was from a percussionist friend - a former employee of the Sydney Symphony, and a man possibly known to Sydneysider David Basden - who didn't even realize that he was teaching me anything. (I offer this tip for the benefit of any other composers out there who haven't yet encountered it.)

    Said percussionist friend told me that it's almost impossible for a singer to go off-pitch in Puccini, because every major vocal entry in every single Puccini opera is preceded by the same note appearing in another voice, or in at least one instrument. Just one of those stratagems by which Puccini differentiated his genius (yes, I said "genius", even if the Pucciniphobic Benjamin Britten rises from his tomb and punches my lights out) from the mere talent of Homo Sapiens.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen