Hymnals from smaller publishers
  • Enough with any self-righteous duplicity, especially if it's perfumed with false magnaminity.
    If you've seriouslly (totally honest, and up front) struggled with how how to implement "the Paradigm" since you've come on board with CMAA, you have doubtless had to wrestle with the contingencies and implications that attend the paradigm.
    That is how and why we can easily defend both past efforts (Burgess Palmer et al) and the emergent gamechangers such as SCG//SEP/BFW/V2Hymnal/OZ Psalter, etc., that have a direct association and distinct CMAA imprimatur from their origins. That, and a few other approaches (Tietze, Psallite, Kathy's strophic Propers, lectionary and office hymns, etc.) get a bit of a pass critically based upon their proximity to the paradigm.
    However, if we are to remain intellectually, and thereby, morally honest in the public square, we would have to ultimately acknowlege that all this "brick by brick" baby steps stuff isn't terminal. If we are to be true to our innermost selves, as I recall was the thrust of a Dr. Schaefer article not too long ago, we have to make the choice to make an ultimate decision about which of the forms of the rite we will attend and what music we will serve that rite with as we go about our vocations.
    Where am I going with this? Well, as the "Old Biddy" said at Cafe, I'm trying not to offend.
    But the roasting of Ambrosetti's "product," though not nearly as close to the paradigm as SEP or the V2 Hymnal, reflects a clear and present hypocrisy among our own. This observation is not meant to defend SAH or any other product, but we cannot hail the V2 and all that JMO, FNJ, AB and CHG are marketing as "not product" or conventional by comparison to the Big Three or anybody else with something to sell. And that is not an indictment of CMAA affiliated publications as being "equiivilent" to other product. They're not.
    But we can ill afford to make philosophical distinctions that indemnify not-CMAA endorsed product from our own and expect to skate through moral scrutiny unscathed.
    I'm sorry, revoke my priviliges, take my party card, whatever....but we have some serious introspection to consider before we start breaking glass houses.
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    Mr. Ambrosetti,

    Although the thread has exploded a bit in the few days I've been out of town, I did want to clarify my earlier post after your reply. I do think the SAH has a fairly good blend of music for the typical parish, but of course what sets apart most of the hymnals from the major publishers (apart from the percentages of the various "genres") are their own in-house music, which was what my focused turned to immediately. My only point (not really a criticism per, although my own response is decidedly negative because the style evokes memories of my hyper-Evangelical friends' music in the 1990s) was that the P&W selections from ILP are of a style I have never heard in Catholic parishes.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I think people are being way too complicated here. At our particular moment in history, there is no excuse for abdicating the responsibility for thinking seriously and critically about these things. At the same time, there's no reason criticism has to be either nasty or partisan. All of which is perfectly obvious and shouldn't have to be said again and again.

  • dhrabbit
    Posts: 1
    Well, it is fascinating to see that the discussions here continue to take up the same battles... since my name has been mentioned a couple of times, thought I would say "hi" again... still hoping against hope that a good, healthy, and constructive dialogue (as Charles and a couple of others are advocating for) can take place some day. It is too bad some of these "debates" cannot happen face to face... it would be very interesting.
  • @dhrabbit

    lol, yea really, I would love for a few of debates to take place face to face, lots of fun.
  • Well, it is fascinating to see that the discussions here continue to take up the same battles.
    Hey, D. As I've said to anyone, it's not accurate to assess CMAA from a "forum only" perspective." But it sometimes gets very old when the conversation dialectic hiccups like the old days of vinyl when a scratch on the 45 or LP made you crazy until you got up to give it a nudge forward. Yeesh.
  • E_A_FulhorstE_A_Fulhorst
    Posts: 381
    Have any of you guys ever been online? In terms of vitriol, this ain't nothin'. (Not that it's excusable, but there isn't all that much questionable speech and what there is is pretty easy to ignore.) Taking offense is always an occasion of pride because it is a wasted opportunity for humility.

    I would look forward to the responses of the publisher, who did appear to have some solid starting principles, to the actual criticisms listed throughout this thread. Specifically:

    benedictgal:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/73851#Comment_73851

    Ben Yanke:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/73855#Comment_73855

    CharlesW:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/73858#Comment_73858

    Kevin in Kentucky:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/73923#Comment_73923

    Rereading these, not a single one of these choice comments --- immediately after which Mr. Ambrosetti replied again --- so much as raised its voice. Each was frustrated, to be sure, to some degree or another but none were hatefully so. I can't blame Mr. Ambrosetti for his frustration, either ---

    see Chonak's comment
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/comment/73925#Comment_73925

    --- but I don't think anyone can blame these cream comments for the tone of their criticism.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • EAF,
    Points well spoken and taken. Might I offer some perspective to clarify them for me?
    *Yes, this forum isn't immune from the "mean" of web discourse. But there is some presumption that participants here are confessed and active Christians, which you affirm in your other statement mentioning taking offense as an occasion of prideful sin.
    *Because of the exegencies of web-talk, it can be difficult to know if what one's just read legitimate criticism that's on topic, or disguised ad hominem. I'm just now trying to learn from Liam (and not very successfully!) that when there are such posts that obviously derail the discussion from topic to person, the best thing to do is nothing. Disengage, don't respond, or if you must, try to bring the thread back to topic.
    *Perhaps the biggest disconnect that happens here when we go astray is that our "bad" behaviors here stand in such stark, absolute contrast to our behaviors when we're in colloquia or other real convenings. I'm sure there are undercurrents in relationship to one another that aren't always congenial, but they're never publicly evident at a CMAA convention. So, we continue to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and...
    Thank you for reminding us to do just that.
    You mentioned Fresno in the 2013 thread. Care to share?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    The problem is that attempts to be "good" are often so bossy and self-righteous, or, alternatively, whiney, that they are "bad," in the sense of keeping the conversation eddying around instead of being mission-focused.

    (This comment was the "bossy" kind.)
  • While I have always felt that the internet forums can be of valuable assistance in our research and in our positions, having to "communicate" via cyberspace takes away all the emotion of the conversation and some comments that are nothing more than very passionate towards a particular subject sometimes come across as bossy and self-righteous. We are unable to see the person who posts, nor hear the inflections in voices used to present an important point of view. I've been blessed to have found this forum and often "lurk" in an attempt to find answers to questions that are unanswerable in my neck of the woods. God bless to all of us in our ministries as the Lord's agents for song and worship. There is no doubt that we are in an age where Catholic music is going through tremendous changes and change is difficult for many people. Some of us went through the changes of Vatican II and have our St. Gregory hymnals replaced by Glory Praise and are now trying to go back to the original. It's not easy and passion overrides a lot of comments. Also, the vernacular of an area plays a big part in how we are reading the comments of other people. Not too long ago I was very offended by those of you coming from large metropolitan areas with large choirs and fancy pipe organs. But, not any more. The bottom line is love of the Lord and working in our assigned districts always remembering we are called to do the work of the Lord.

    Okay, I'm off my soapbox. For what it's worth, I do appreciate all the help and assistance given on the entire Musica Sacra website and forums.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes... It is a shame we cannot see each other and talk face to face. A lot is lost, especially in the passionate (compassionate) expression of what is said and how it is received. I say we go for a live video blog.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Don't envy the large choirs and organs. There are headaches and extra work that go with those.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ... but the headache is worth the beauty if you can handle it.
    Thanked by 2ryand Gavin
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I'd take the headaches of a large organ over those of a synthesizer and P&W band any day!
  • There's no doubt that the sounds of a pipe organ overrides anything coming from a synthesizer or P&W band. Unfortunately, for many of us, we don not have the luxury of parish budgets that allow for such things. So, yes, while I would prefer an organist who can make an organ sing and dance, I have to be contented with a synthesizer, that, nonetheless, can sing like the angels with the right person playing!
  • @BMP (from April 2011 - wow, am I late to respond or what!)....yes, the 1984 edition, which that parish is still using. I have since taken a new position in a different state since I moved in mid-2011 to be closer to my then-fiancee (now wife). My current parish is doing Breaking Bread (it was in place for several years before I came, and I'm told it was Muzak Issue before that). We are currently looking at options for a permanent hymnal before the end of the year. Current considerations are: PMB (2003 edition, which has not been updated for the revised Missal...good luck pitching that one, eh!), St. Michael (my personal preference), JourneySongs (which, in all honesty, I feel I'd have the best "luck" with, and its lack of GIA is no skin off my nose), and Worship 4. I can't consider Vatican II Hymnal (although I'd like to), as it's just lacking too much of the current repertoire, although I have pretty effectively weaned them off the Haugen-Haas in the last year and a half I've been here, haha!
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