Hymn Sandwich
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After a lot of reading and praying, I've decided to do away with the "hymn sandwich" mentality of four hymns (processional/offertory/communion/recessional and gone to some instrumentals. The people of my parish are not happy and I've been accused of "trying to glorify myself for showing what I'm capable of doing". This is not the case at all.
Have any of you had similar situations? -
Oh, one more thing......I've started offertory and communio SEP's and they have also gone over like lead balloons with the mentality that I am "just showing off". I am so very frustrated. It seems nothing I do is working with this parish. Help!
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I recommend taking things slowly, with gradual implementation. We added the communion proper first (with a shorter communion hymn following). As much as I'd love to just jump to full propers, it took us 50 years (arguably even more) to get to this point, so I'm willing to let a couple of years (which is nothing in "church time") be the timeframe of implementation.
In the meantime, exposing the congregation to the communion proper helped me to get a schola together to do a once a month EF, now sung with full propers!
Also, if your pastor is on-board, perhaps a few homilies discussing the importance of the propers in the mass would help reactions? -
Getting rid of the "hymn sandwich" doesn't mean getting rid of singing. There should still be singing, not an instrumental voluntary.
Frankly, I think the "hymn sandwich" IS a good fit for some situations. But as for yours, it sounds like you need to get some more people involved and on board. The people who complain about you "showing off": tell them, "I wouldn't want to show off; perhaps you'll sing with me next weekend?" -
I dropped the offertory hymn some years ago, with no complaints from the congregation. A hymn is still sung at communion, after the communion proper. Introits, I have used as preludes, and don't really want to replace the entrance hymn. It works well for us, and the pastor likes using a hymn. Recessional hymns are still with us, and I have no plans to change those.
This is often a slow process, and too much, too fast, can cause a backlash. -
I agree with what others have said. Real, lasting change comes from taking a long view and very gradually and thoughtfully changing things.
The nature of the complaints at the parish is very interesting. They are not making the connection between what you are doing (instrumentals) and liturgy. Rather, they feel as though you are the only one making music, and they have had their opportunity to sing replaced with the instrumentalists' music. In fact I'm not sure instrumentals are at all envisioned by the documents as replacements for the processional chants. Hymns are allowed, but the GIRM does not mention instrumental solos as an option.
I agree with others that Communion is the place to start. Replace the first hymn at Communion time with a Psalm. I think in most situations that is step 1. And I agree that for the next step--a year or two later--in most places the offertory could be replaced with a proper or solo or motet. And I would never, except in a rarified situation such as an oratory or pilgrimage site or someplace extraordinary like that, simply replace the opening hymn without a long preparation. ADDing the introit might work, if explained well in the bulletin, etc., preferably by both the DM and Pastor. -
I would instead gradually re-familiarize (or, in most places, familiarize) people with the idea of propers on a rotating basis: introit one week, offertory another week, communion another week, for example (in some places, this may need to be even slower - every other week). It will, for many, upset ritual expectations (and rituals involve expectations, and expectations are pre-meditated resentments); any shift in a ritual involves provoking resentments, but the purpose here is to *expand* what the ritual can encompass.
The practical ritual goal here is to get to a point where encountering a proper instead of a hymn is no longer widely perceived as strange or unfamiliar as a ritual matter.
It will take time (perhaps even more than a decade in many places), and oodles of patience and engagement. In the journey of faith, we are not normally supposed to enjoy the harvest of what we sow; instead, we harvest what those before us have sowed. Delayed gratification (even delaying the satisfaction of knowing we are doing right) is the norm in mature spiritual life. -
Thanks everybody. I think, though, that my post may have been confusing. I am not advocating dispensing with the congregation singing. Quite the contrary. I just feel that certain parts of the mass need more reflective time in terms of just listening and allowing the music to transcend the soul in preparation for Eucharist. I will keep the Processional and Recessional hymn without complaint. But, I think for offertory, especially, a quiet instrumental allows the people to prepare for the second half of the mass. A beautiful hymn at communion is also beautiful, but only if sung properly. If not, I feel it will distract from the sacredness of the Eucharist. During Lent, I used SEP at communion time and it had mixed reactions with some saying "well, it's just Lent....she'll change with Easter".
Again, I appreciate everybody's response. My main concern is in some of you saying implementing "newness" often takes years and years. In the last 15 years, we've changed pastors 4 times in my parish. And every time a new pastor comes in, he brings with him a new mentality and "vision". -
Think about it this way, not doing an offertory hymn, takes away the opportunity of the people to hold the hymnal up, and not reach into the wallet. LOL, you can certainly convince a pastor about cutting that, if they think the people will reach in the wallet better, without the "distraction" of holding on tight to that hymnal. lol
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Oh, one more thing......I've started offertory and communio SEP's and they have also gone over like lead balloons with the mentality that I am "just showing off".
Are you just singing them by yourself? Perhaps that is the problem, because it is largely alien to the rite to have the propers sung by a single cantor. Traditionally, they would either be sung by a choir (at a high Mass or missa cantata), or not sung whatsoever and just said inaudibly by the priest. I would not be surprised at all if people thought it sounded a little bizarre for you to just bust out with these verses by yourself. You should try to get at least a smallish choir together in order to attempt the propers; otherwise, I hate to say it but you are really engaged in hybridization, which is in the realm of innovation and novelty. -
Yes, it's only been me because my choir has been very hostile towards any kind of change. I've had a chant expert come in on two different occasions to train the choir and only had 2-4 people attend out of 25. In an effort to introduce the SEP's I've been doing it myself, but from the keyboard (where I am hidden). As far as "engaging in hybridization", I'll do anything at this point to introduce some chant to my church. What is interesting, is that the former DM did ALL the responsorial psalms herself (never used a cantor other than herself) and was never considered in the same vein as what I'm experiencing. If we are going to talk hybrid, then her responses (which were total paraphrases of the psalm) should never have been used.
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Even if it were only three to five of you, I really think it would be best to do these chants with a choral ensemble rather than as solos. Traditionally, a cantor sings to the congregation; a choir sings on behalf of the congregation. It would not sound nearly as much like showing off if the propers were sung by a group, however small.
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Musicteacher56,
Sounds to me like you've gotten off on the wrong foot here. I think you might consider doing these things:
1) Slow way down on the liturgy reforms
2) Find some things about your parish that you like. Find people in your parish to feel kindly about. Try to really love them, not just by service, but by real admiration and affection. Try to admire your parishioners and care about them.
3) Pray a lot!
4) Talk to your pastor=administrator about how you feel things are going, and see if you can't come up with a strategy for (I'll say it again) slowing way down. He has certainly heard complaints already and will probably want to have this discussion with you.
We hear a lot on this forum about how resistant congregations are to change, and how good DMs don't last very long in parishes that won't change. The problem is, there is a right way to change and a lot of wrong ways. It seems obvious that you want to do the right things liturgically and that is great! Please take your time. Repair the damage that has been done, get some volunteers together, make them happy, and start singing things that make the congregation happy. Then, slowly, make changes. -
There are two main problems that I have identified (albeit there are probably many, many more) with that particular musical arrangement:
1. The entire congregation is at the mercy and whim of the person who chooses the hymns.
2. The entire congregation is at the mercy and whim of the person who chooses the hymns.
There are two further issues common to each of those listed above:
1. The person choosing the hymns may be of indiscriminate theology: i.e. "just do something people can sing" (not considering text or theology, or minimally at best), or "just do something seasonal" (an attempt to consider the seasonal liturgy, but still not fully considering the theology of the text).
2. The person choosing the hymns may be of poor theology, and may believe that he or she is choosing great music, but in reality is choosing music that has poor spiritual content. In this situation, one would like to believe that the priest would step in and rectify the situation, preferably through educating the individual so that he or she can make better choices.
In regards to the choosing of hymns, lex orandi, lex credendi has been quoted to me many times, however, it seems that the 4-hymn sandwich is not the best solution for marrying what we pray to what we should believe (sound theology).
The whole problem can be avoided by utilizing the first two options, which removes the choice from our hands: the Church chooses for us. There are only two groups of people that will have an issue with this: 1. antagonists, and 2. people for whom the music heard at Mass only has a shallow emotional value -
Lent is, in my opinion, the easiest time to get the congregation used to hearing chants, so that has been my method to introduce the propers. So far, I have not had any negative feedback, but it's been less than a week, too. I think a good share of churches actually do use some chants during Lent so it wouldn't be an entirely new concept.
Besides just introducing the chants, I am also writing articles (with the pastor's guidance, thankfully!) in the bulletin explaining the process. I have actually had positive feedback about that so far. We'll see if that lasts when some of the chants continue beyond Easter. -
Be encouraged to keep trying, not everything we try succeeds, and often we need a bit of trial and error to get going.
From a practical planning point of view, to get from here to there , you have to be thoroughly familiar with here first. What is the practice people are used to? What is good about it? What can be embraced? Does anything stand out as so glaringly wrong that it must be changed immediately?
Secondly - where is there? What is the end point you are trying to get to? Is it a realistic goal for you, in that particular place, with that congregation, clergy, choir? you may have to modify your end point somewhat.
Lastly having thoroughly thought through here and there, over a reasonable time frame - say five years, how will you get from here to there?
Hint - every incremental change should be presented and feel like a GAIN for those involved, not a loss.
So for example - deciding the hymns sung at communion are of dubious quality and cutting them out, introducing Propers which only you can and do sing will be felt mostly as a loss. (don't mean to imply this is what you did - just throwing out a hypothetical).
On the other hand - what you could do is - introduce simple English propers as 'something the congregation can pick up easily and sing' doing the same one several times in a season, so that the congregation really does get to know it. Meanwhile, let your choir develop some skill at adding psalm verses, if they like to sing parts you could make this choral. And don't drop the hymn, just choose shorter ones (weeding out the horrible ones as you go)
So now you have accomplished... the introduction of the choir to the concept of propers, while it still feels like hymn singing...the inclusion of the congregation in singing the propers, so they don't feel robbed... some weeding of the communion hymn choices.
After a while, y'all will have a few communion chants under your belt. Next step (next year) an occasional latin proper by the choir.... followed by an English proper instead of a hymn.... or an English proper and a latin hymn ...etc etc simple little steps..Thanked by 1CHGiffen -
y'all will have
Eire-ians got "y'all's?" Another anthropological wonder discovered! Celts rule! -
Whose to say we didn't get it from them?Thanked by 1melofluent
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I dropped the offertory hymn some years ago, with no complaints from the congregation. A hymn is still sung at communion, after the communion proper. Introits, I have used as preludes, and don't really want to replace the entrance hymn. It works well for us, and the pastor likes using a hymn. Recessional hymns are still with us, and I have no plans to change those.
This is often a slow process, and too much, too fast, can cause a backlash.
So, do you sing the Offitoriale, or do they just take up collection in silence?
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So, do you sing the Offitoriale, or do they just take up collection in silence?
We fleece the congregation of every widow's mite and last bit of their life savings we can get our hands on.
We sing choir anthems - Anglican ones are my favorites. We sing Offertory Propers when they are especially good and fit the events of the liturgical year. BTW, all Propers are not automatically worth doing just because they are Propers. Some I have heard were ugly and the content was not related to the particular Sunday. Some Sundays I may play an organ piece. We are an OF congregation and meet the requirements (including allowed options) permitted in the OF.
You know, I hope, that the recent comments are in response to a three-year-old thread? -
Three years old, yet still relevant in churches throughout the United States.
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Three years old, yet still relevant in churches throughout the United States.
The priest may have entered assisted living and half the choir died in three years! LOL.Thanked by 1Gavin -
"There are only two groups of people that will have an issue with this: 1. antagonists, and 2. people for whom the music heard at Mass only has a shallow emotional value."
How convenient.
Good luck with that.
If you work in an oratory, abbey church, or very well-endowed parish, you are blessed indeed.Thanked by 1Gavin -
Sarcasm duly noted.
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@melo.... nope, just been hanging around this board to long... and practising for Pittsburgh, so I can make some attempt at coherent verbal communications with y'all.
The plural form of you in Ireland is generally yous...as in
'yous are all answering a three year old thread, are yous mad?' -
In our more rural areas where the people are descended from Scots-Irish ancestors, they say "you'uns." Y'all is less an Appalachian expression and more deep south in origin.
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ClergetKubisz -
There are, indeed, theological non-entities and musical vacuums who choose hymns in many of our parishes. This, really, is not their fault, but is the fault of the musically vacuous non-entity priests who appoint them. Of course, these would-be musicians have no business in the church anyway, but the fact that they get 'jobs' is owing entirely to absolute liturgical sans souciance higher up the ladder.
That said, there are hordes of highly qualified choirmasters and organists who are blessed with wise superiors and intelligent congregations who feel blessed to profit from their ministry, liturgical charism, and expertise. There are other hordes who strive, and strive, and strive, to choose apt music of quality and are mercilessly thwarted in their efforts by priests who have the liturgical sense of bats and congregations full of men and women who think that their favourite happy-clappy songs are not to be bettered, nor replacing them tolerated.
I do, though, not share in the admitted sarcasm of the above post. More parishes should strive to the liturgy and music of '...an oratory, abbey church {and, be it noted, all abbeys are not liturgical meccas], or very well endowed parish...'.
Finally, I shall repeat for the hundred-thousandth time that referring to 'the four hymn sandwich' is not cute, not smart, not clever, but quite childish and thoroughly stupid. It is as dumb as referring to a 'four proper sandwich' would be. Hymns are not, ipso facto, bad. Much stuff called 'hymnody' these days isn't, and much that is isn't the best. The object is to choose good hymns wisely and aptly for a given day. This is one of the duties and prerogatives of a qualified choirmaster, one who has been appointed by a priest who is an intelligent man whose priestly formation included immersion in the Church's patrimony of liturgy and its music. -
Finally, I shall repeat for the hundred-thousandth time that referring to 'the four hymn sandwich' is not cute, not smart, not clever, but quite childish and thoroughly stupid. It is as dumb as referring to a 'four proper sandwich' would be. Hymns are not, ipso facto, bad.
I agree. I have heard some pretty crappy excuses for Propers, too.Of course, these would-be musicians have no business in the church anyway, but the fact that they get 'jobs' is owing entirely to absolute liturgical sans souciance higher up the ladder.
Many of those would be musicians are there because they either desperately need the money, or at some parishes, got the job because they would work cheaply. One can be a top musician and still be hindered and thwarted by poor parish leadership. -
For context: The original use of the "four hymn sandwich" in the Usenet and other discussion fora in the 1990s was specific to a situation where the hymns were the only thing sung at Mass. It was specifically a critique of a situation where the only things sung were condiments to recitation.
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Ah, yes, context in this case is very helpful. Thank you, Liam.
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I wholeheartedly agree with Jackson's views above. Hymns are a positive good in the life of the Church and have been since they ended the Last Supper.
If you want to improve sung music in your parish, the very first move is to replace crap hymns with real ones.
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If you want to improve sung music in your parish, the very first move is to replace crap hymns with
realgood ones.
Fixed. A real hymn is not necessarily a good one. Nor is "real" the opposite of "crap." Crap is real, too.Thanked by 1Adam Wood -
Crap is real, too.
And thanks to modern technology, we keep recycling it back into the system! -
Well, that dynamic prevailed since the time of cheap industrial-scale printing in the 19th century. A lot of crap traveled long in many editions.Thanked by 1Gavin
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Uh, I was jokingly being literal.
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Crap is real, too.
Much, much too real.... -
Four hymns at mass started in the mid to late 50s when the Latin Dialogue Low Mass was promoted as the best way (allowable) at the time to promote congregational participation (yes, highly subjective). The idea came from Austria, Germany and Holland. Even through the 60s when the blending of High Mass and Low Mass in the vernacular were allowed, the four hymns only hung on in some places. After the appearance of the NO, many parishes held on to the old ways. Of course, the ordinary and the propers are much more important than any (good quality) hymns, but some parishes just haven't caught up.
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Fr,
I'm using "real hymns" in Christopher Idle's sense of the expression.
Crap is not real. Ergo Worship IV is not a real hymnal.
You're welcome. -
Though I remain flummoxed that we're still talking about the "hymn sandwich" in the 21st century, I believe its inculturation occurred during the Counter Reformation era in the Germanic nations with the allowance for the SingMesse (basic "Grout"), which then wandered about the globe ever since, with hymns replacing Ordinary movements here and there, etc.
But imagine my surprise when a new, imported Filipino vicar (32 years ordained) showed up last weekend and still had some confusion evident after being informed that we "sing everything." It was like, "Give me a signal when you're going to sing." The only conclusion I imagined was that the hymn sandwich lives on somewhere, somehow. Unbelievable. -
The four hymn sandwich is sometimes indigestible.
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Remember the sandwich, and keep it holy
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I am the sandwich, and you shall have no other sandwiches before me.Thanked by 1musiclover88
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Behold:
http://activerain.trulia.com/image_store/uploads/1/2/6/2/2/ar122333374822621.jpg
I myself am the Bread of White. -
WonderBread! With all the nutrients a body needs!
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What is the Daily Value for MSG?
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Hey, my late mother was the White Rose Bread girl of 1928....
http://img2.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/45456762/400/400/0_0_5287_6737.jpg
“WATCH OUT Mother! When child is cross and listless..." -
He gave them sandwiches from heaven and they were satisfied.
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This must be the Baloney school of Vatican II hermeneutics...Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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This thread is getting more and more mouldy.Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
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