Role of the Cantor
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I am curious: do your cantors 'lead' the congregational hymns, along with the organ or keyboard?
    I have noticed that this may be a practice that is changing. If there is a good organist leading the hymns, a cantor is not
    needed for this role and can actually confuse things. But I notice that many people still think of this as a role for the cantor- witness the Vatican's' questionnaire that mentioned the 'animation' of the assembly by a cantor. Many people still cling to the cantor at a microphone in front of the people as the way to do things.
    It is interesting to me that in say, some Lutheran parishes where people really sing, no cantor is in front, and the organ leads. Is it possible that the cantor in front actually 'replaces' the peoples song, and has the opposite effect of suppressing the people's singing? People tend to watch and listen to the cantor in an entertainment fashion rather than participating.
    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes. Absolutely.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn Patricia Cecilia
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    in say, some Lutheran parishes where people really sing, no cantor is in front, and the organ leads

    ... and in some Methodist parishes, and some Episcopal parishes, and some Presbyterian parishes, and ...

    Also "some" parishes might well be replaced with "most" parishes.
    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    The cantor in front who "leads" the congregational hymns does nothing of the sort ... except to get in the way of people's singing. Better to "lead" "follow along" from the rear, as a member of the congregation.
    Thanked by 6M. Jackson Osborn Jani doneill kenstb francis ClergetKubisz
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    In my parish, I don't allow the cantor to sing from the ambo. I had to spend far too much time when I first arrived at the parish extracting the "artists" and "performers" from that sacred space. The cantor may stand to the right of the schola, or next to me at the organ. I don't want to expose them to the temptation of thinking that what we are trying to do is all about them.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen francis
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    At our choral mass, the cantor is only downstairs for things that she specifically has to sing by herself, i.e. the psalm, gospel acclamation, and if there is a psalm at Communion, the verses of that.

    At the other masses, they typically do go up for everything. We've experimented with having them stay seated for mass parts that the people know well. The level of singing went down and then went back up when they got in front again.

    You can talk about Methodist, Episcopal, and Lutheran parishes all day; we aren't them and our people don't react the way their people do to the same things.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    My parish is Roman Catholic..
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Wherever I've worked the cantor sing only the Psalm at the Ambo. Everything else is sung from a mic near the organ. I have found that congregations need someone to start singing at the right time and once they know when to start singing they can carry it away from there.

    In some cases, I find that a cantor is good for preventing dragging from the congregation such as during chant hymns like thw Pater Noster.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    PGA, Many times it is just the sight of the singer that causes them to sing.

    Just because someone rings a bell, dogs slobber.

    Catholics do not sing better when led, they sing better when they know it is time to sing.

    I bet that in your church if the singer stood there and mouthed the words, they'd sing better.



  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Well, yes I believe that too. But the point is, having him/her stay in the pew doesn't do it, they need to be up there in front of them.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Alas, some people in pews are so used to having a visible 'leader' that they complain at the lack of one. Maybe we need to get people used to the practice gradually.
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  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    That's what I meant, if they need that cue, then they need trained to another cue. We know that in almost any Catholic church if you play Holy God at the end of Mass, they will sing.

    We also know that even if you have a number board on the wall, introducing a hymn they do not know well, and they will sit on their hands.

    I know that I have said this before, but singing a few hymns over and over means more people will sing.

    Trying to match humans with readings is foolish...since each reading has different things in it that you might pick to match. It's better to choose seasonal hymns.

    The prayers in the Mass do tend to be constant in most cases, why should the music the people are going to sing keep changing?

    There is boredom in catholic music....boredom of musicians who keep wanting to do new music, different hymns. There is no boredom in the pews when the same hymns are sung over and over again.

    It's hard for us to put ourselves out there in the pews and think like they do,

    The Church has ALWAYS known this, which is why the choir sings the propers and the people sing the GREAT hymns that do not change, the Gloria, the Creed, Sanctus and Agnus Dei.

    Priests do not get tired of saying them, people, once they learn them will be the same.

    Why do priests enjoy omitting the Gloria and really avoid singing the Creed, the song of what Catholics believe?

    Thanked by 4G ClergetKubisz tomjaw dad29
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I have a lifesize cardboard cutout of a cantor in full garb with large springs attached to the arms that bob up and down activated from a stop on the organ. When I pull the stop for the zimblestern, the cutout does 360's (from the waist!). This attracts a lot of visitors (which the pastor is particularly fond of having attend the Mass), so its a win win!
    Thanked by 6Ben Salieri kenstb noel jones, aago bkenney27 ghmus7
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    My cantors are in the loft with me and sing psalms and gospel acclamations. They sing with the congregation on hymns.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I try to repeat hymns to give some continuity and familiarity to the music. I find that having a seasonal hymn and a regular rotation of communion or eucharistic hymns makes a huge difference to congregational participation.

    Another great help is to have hymns from different liturgical seasons or uses in the same hymn tune.

    Eg 1. ST FLAVIAN is used for "Lord Who throughout these forty days", "o cross of christ immortal tree" and "most ancient of all mysteries"

    Eg 2. STUTTGART is used for "Come Thou long expected Jesus", "bethlehem of Noblest Cities" and in Australia is also used for "Sing We now the glorious martyrs"

    Eg 3. OLD HUNDRETH is used for dozens of hymns: "All People that on Earth do Dwell", "Praise God from whom all blessings flow/All Hail Adored Trinity"

    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 66
    Trying to match humans with readings is foolish

    I had to laugh over the typo ("hymns"). Yet the statement is uncannily relevant to anyone in charge of assigning lectors....
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I know that I have said this before, but singing a few hymns over and over means more people will sing.


    Precisely, Noel. Thank you for mentioning this. I know that this runs counter to what we learn, especially in music education, where one of our standards for teaching includes the word "variety" and the expectation is that the students are given a wide range of things to do, and not just the same few songs over and over. However, and especially if the clergy is so interested in congregational singing, limiting the repertoire really does help at the parish level, especially since the congregation is essentially an untrained, unrehearsed choir that has different members for each performance (but is still expected to perform adequately).
    Thanked by 2francis noel jones, aago
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Perhaps we should give some thought to the old practice of having two choirs: A mixed unison choir in the nave to help lead the people's singing, and a polyphonic choir (mixed or whatever combination that works) in the gallery/choir that sings the propers and motets.

    There are names for these two groups, but I can't remember right now.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    We also know that even if you have a number board on the wall, introducing a hymn they do not know well, and they will sit on their hands.
    Hence the tradition in the Episcopal Church, briefly stated as:
    We kneel to pray, we sit to listen, and we stand to sing.

    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Salieri:

    Choir I and Choir II?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Chori Spitsatti?
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Francesco non Papa: No, there were specific names, and I remember it particularly in connexion with North German Lutheran praxis around the time of Buxtehude & Bach.

    E.g. The Organist would play a Choraleprelude on the given hymn to set the key, and the Unison choir would take it up, a cappella, with the people joining. The polyphonic choir (and orchester) would sing the Cantata or Motet.

    I have been wracking my brains trying to remember these terms, and St. Google hath rendered unto me no succor.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Try St. Anthony... he has a better reputation for recovering lost items.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood kenstb Salieri tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    It's been right in front of me all day : from the introduction to the Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols, by Hugh Keyte and Andrew Parrott, speaking on "The German Hymn Tradition"

    A congregation would normally be led by a cantor standing in its midst, and in a large town church it might be supported by a unison plainchant choir (chorus choralis). In Catholic churches a few cantors often fulfilled the same function, while among Lutherans the supporters might be the boys of the town Latin school with their master, or occasionally a mixed adult group from the congregation. These all sang entirely in unison, unaccompanied, and at a markedly slower pace than the polyphonic choir (chorus musicus), which also participated in hymns (though never, in the early days, simultaneously with the congregation). [emphasis original.]


    Chorus Choralis: leads the people.
    Chorus Musicus: sing choral music.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Salieri, thanks for the details on this.
    It's true that the congregational chorales were in earlier times sung a capella. Such singing was quite ordinary throughout Christendom (Catholic and Protestant alike) until approximately 150-100 years ago when humans underwent drastic genetic mutations which have rendered them incapable of singing without instruments, and very often from singing at all! Just imagine!: the very great grandparents of today's churchgoers who sit on their hands could sing their heads off with no trouble at all. Perhaps something in our diets (or maybe something in the water???) is responsible for this vocal degradation, this genetic decay, which doesn't seem to affect speech, but only song?!

    As for the pitch given by the chorale prelude, one wonders if the congregation were listening attentively: Titelouze remarks of alternatim practice in France that, whilst the organ verses were being played, the monks would begin talking so loudly that scarcely could the organ be heard. 'Church' in past times was not always the civilised affair to which we are accustomed.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    If the hymn scores were on their iPhones, the congregation would have a greater chance of seeing them, since they play with those phones throughout the mass anyway.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood ghmus7
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    In all candor, I think Pads are the future for content delivery for worship.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    I think Pads are the future for content delivery for worship.

    Welcome to the St. Ipad Jobs Missile, Gradual Confectionary Project. Apple (missing a bite) courtesy that reptile from the Garden of Eden.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Not pads, but something like the e-paper Kindle would be actually kinda great.
    Thanked by 2melofluent francis
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    I am sure that many here spend a large amount of time choosing hymns, and trying to keep 'everyone' happy. But will modern technology help, anymore than Cantors and choirs, and greeters thrusting hymn books into everybody's hand.

    Do our congregations want to sing hymns?

    Will our congregation as a whole want to sing any style or type of hymn from the Hymnal?

    I do not go to Mass to sing or listen to Hymns, I suspect that I am not alone in this tendency. I also do not like being given a Hymn book and be expected to sing...

    I note that the Hymns that were sung when I was a child a youth Mass are now only sung by aged hippies, or a modern youth Mass shortly before 97 % ( U.K.) of the children lapse!

    The Hymns we sang at our traditional minded parish church at the time are now either no longer sung or are strangely changed having been edited.

    I note from looking at Catholic Hymnals both historical and modern that there has been almost constant change in the vernacular hymns contained, of those that can be found in a number of Hymnals the number of verses, the melody, and even the text seems to change.

    Vernacular hymns / songs CAN have a tendency to say a little too much about our Nationality, Ethnic group, age, political ideas and even class.

    I am not surprised that sometimes a congregation is less than happy to sing, these carefully chosen hymn / songs.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    When I accepted my current position, the congregation was supposedly singing four hymns during mass. One lady said to me, "You're singing us to death!" I cut out the offertory hymn first thing. I put in a communion hymn after the Proper, but most don't sing it and it is really a cantor/choir piece. In essence, the congregation sings entrance and recessional hymns and the mass Ordinary. That's enough, it seems to me.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar rich_enough
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Do our congregations want to sing hymns?

    Will our congregation as a whole want to sing any style or type of hymn from the Hymnal?

    I do not go to Mass to sing or listen to Hymns, I suspect that I am not alone in this tendency. I also do not like being given a Hymn book and be expected to sing...


    Whereas I would not stay long in a non-singing congregation.

    Different congregations are different. Different people within a congregation are different.

    A music director or cantor trying to get a bunch of people to sing who have no interest in doing so is a sad situation.

    A congregation that wants to to sing and is stymied by poor literature and/or poor musicianship is also a sad situation.

    There are many universals and general principles in church music and liturgy. But the nature of congregational singing is not one of them.

    You have to know your people, and you have to know them better than they know themselves.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I am sure that many here spend a large amount of time choosing hymns, and trying to keep 'everyone' happy. But will modern technology help, anymore than Cantors and choirs, and greeters thrusting hymn books into everybody's hand.


    First, this one looked like a lot of fun to answer, so I am blockquoting the whole friggin thing!

    I never spend a lot of time picking hymns. Once you have the best 150-200, you are set and they pretty much rotate well throughout the year. I never try to keep everyone happy unless it is specified in my contract, and believe me, many of them talk about keeping the congregation happy.

    Do our congregations want to sing hymns?


    The choice of sacred music has nothing to do with what congregations want.


    Will our congregation as a whole want to sing any style or type of hymn from the Hymnal?


    If you put this choice before the congregation all you will get is a cat fight, and that is a universal law.

    I do not go to Mass to sing or listen to Hymns, I suspect that I am not alone in this tendency. I also do not like being given a Hymn book and be expected to sing...


    Amen!

    I note that the Hymns that were sung when I was a child a youth Mass are now only sung by aged hippies, or a modern youth Mass shortly before 97 % ( U.K.) of the children lapse!


    Yup!

    The Hymns we sang at our traditional minded parish church at the time are now either no longer sung or are strangely changed having been edited.


    Edited!!! REALLY!!!!! How odd!!!! (purple)

    I note from looking at Catholic Hymnals both historical and modern that there has been almost constant change in the vernacular hymns contained, of those that can be found in a number of Hymnals the number of verses, the melody, and even the text seems to change.


    Hallelujah! Where's the Tylenol!

    Vernacular hymns / songs CAN have a tendency to say a little too much about our Nationality, Ethnic group, age, political ideas and even class.


    Don't even get me started.

    I am not surprised that sometimes a congregation is less than happy to sing, these carefully chosen hymn / songs.


    If I was to take a vid of our congregation this afternoon, the only people singing will be a handful sitting next to the cantor who REALLY like to sing drek along with the cantor. That's about it!

    We are glad to have you here and your observations are spot on!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    (Parody of an above comment follows)

    I don't go to Mass to listen to sermons. Why am I forced to endure these sermons? I suspect I am not alone in this. There are constant changes in the sermons. These sermons should not be forced on congregations.

    I don't go to Mass to listen to readings....

    I don't go to Mass to watch processions....
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood jeffinpa ContraBombarde
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have flesh colored ear plugs for all the times when I don't want to listen. When I taught I would use them during the principal's annual state of the school address, and especially at the wretched diocesan in-services each year. The music there always seemed like the worst possible. I even wore them when the school music teacher presented his Christmas concert. The kids caught on and would make an effort to walk by and see Mr. W's ear plugs. They didn't want to listen either, so they always got a laugh out of it. If you ever see me at a speech, sermon, or musical performance and I am smiling beatifically at everything, you can be sure I am not listening.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Adam Wood for the win.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Re the cantor: less is more.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    As usual, beginning a thread elicits many comments some a bit far away from the topic, however, I am surprised that Spirits of the drinking type have not yet been mentioned.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    beer.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Cantors:
    Try to pick all the music...have to put cardboard numbers on the board...and/or call out what to sing next, even verses during the hymn...out of tune monotone or bel canto operatic...
    Sometimes I get roped in cantoring, sometimes it's a chore, but at least it's easier than the dreaded play&sing masses,,,yikes.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The ideal would really be to have an anthem or motet during offertory and a communion proper followed by a hymn. The congregation already sings 5 items in the mass ordinary they don't need to be forced to sing 5 hymns.

    Thanked by 3CharlesW noel jones, aago hilluminar
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Whereas I would not stay long in a non-singing congregation.

    Different congregations are different. Different people within a congregation are different.

    And the same people are different in different congregations.
    I think you might be amazed at what you would do, were your circumstance to change.
    I know I was.
    My husband was raised Methodist, and the first time we attended a Mass with not a single note played or sung he was appalled. (We were visiting a friend, it had not dipped below 88 for three days, the projected high was 106, the church had no air-conditioning, and the 6:00 am Mass was standing room only. Himself only reluctantly agreed that a Mass with no singing was a good idea.)
    But because of where we find ourselves due to family circumstances, and the time constraints family matters put on us, even he seeks out music-free liturgies.
    I always figured that in such circumstances I would volunteer, help the "music ministry"... but when the MDs liturgical sensibilities are in line with a pastor who sings a post-Communion hymn of thanksgiving or meditation or whatever you want to call it of, and I am not making this up, "In the Good Old Summertime" it doesn't really seem like a good use of time and vocal resources.
    (Parody of an above comment follows)

    I don't go to Mass to listen to sermons. Why am I forced to endure these sermons? I suspect I am not alone in this. There are constant changes in the sermons. These sermons should not be forced on congregations.

    I don't go to Mass to listen to readings....

    I don't go to Mass to watch processions....
    Lousy analogy - neither the homily, nor scripture readings, nor the liturgical necessity of getting people and objects from one place to another are on a par with Random Religious Songs, which are what many, if not most people are asked to sing at Mass.

    If the poster you attempted to parody were complaining about being asked to sing responses to the priest in the dialogues, or chant the Our Father, then you'd have a point.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 3francis tomjaw Jenny
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think you might be amazed at what you would do, were your circumstance to change.


    You are correct! Some congregations and some priests would try the patience of a saint. They may not be worth the stress of dealing with them. A good time to shake the dust from your sandals and move on for the sake of your spiritual health.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    even he seeks out music-free liturgies


    Even I seek out music-free liturgies.

    It is a sad, sad, sad thing that the church has come to when the highest art form most treasured by the church is no longer appreciated or practiced in the church.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Considering some of the music I've been forced to endure, while attending the Holy Sacrifice, there have been times that no music would have been a VAST improvement over what I was subjected to.

    I say this as a person who is working towards a fully sung Mass (readings and all).

    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    The usual mantra of YMMV applies. CharlesW has recounted the woman who said to him "You're singing us to death."

    On the other hand, at my place, I'm experiencing some people who don't like it when we sing only two or three hymns at mass. They claim that they WANT to sing and want to be given more to sing (in addition to the parts that we sing which are supposed to be sung, i.e. the mass ordinary, etc)

    So this year, during the summer we will sing three hymns and only cut the final hymn, whereas we used to cut both offertory and the final hymn during the summer. They say they want to sing during that time.

    I don't really get it, but it's not a problem either; obviously, the GIRM envisions singing during the offertory so I'm hard pressed to make any real argument against it other than "we've always done it this way," which I rightly castigate others for using, so I won't use it myself.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Dont' forget. The preference for singing is FIRST the dialogues, SECOND the ordinary, THIRD the propers, etc. Have you thought about getting the priest to sing the dialogues?
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    We already do this generally speaking at least at the choir mass.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    We are thrilled to hear that!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Let me clarify a bit, PGA. My congregation sings three hymns every Sunday - entrance, communion and recessional. They also sing the Ordinary and preface responses. Many feel that is enough and don't want any more singing. I am ok with that.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Encouragement warning:

    Sing the Credo. When you accustom yourselves to it, you'll wonder how you ever managed not to do so.


    Thanked by 5StimsonInRehab noel jones, aago Ben tomjaw Jahaza
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