Seriously Adam, try harder. Culbreth's a tough read, but he makes damn more sense than those banners and kites.

Yes, that's true.

The point is- I knew you knew what was up, more than most people do.
The trouble isn't your style. The trouble is you know TOO WELL what is up, and write/talk as if other people do too already. But I don't think most people do.

("They weren't there, man- they don't KNOW")

Charles, I think Adam basically meant that as a hearty compliment.

Yes.
(and maybe I don't make any damn sense, either)

If I had intended to be rude to Charles while talking to JT on IM, I would not have copied it here.

I thank thee, Lord, for not making me butt-ugly or to be an warbling old bag in a pantsuit.

While you guys poke fun at this (and maybe deservedly so), this is a major step forward for NPM to have the big eucharist in a church. They have often been in convention centers that were "dressed" to look churchy. And the servers dressed in cassock and surplice...I am truly shocked in a good way to see this.

This is a major notch up for NPM to be in the basilica. Laugh as you will but you have to see this in context. Yes, the puppets are ridiculous and the NPM logo bothers me, but again, one has to see it in context. This is significant in a good way.

You weren't there in the 90's when some really interesting stuff happened.

from the bourbon lands....

That's a really important point, Kevin. It looked like two worlds colliding because it was. So what does the future hold? Exciting!

Andrew,

I wonder if you're giving folks enough credit. Surely people you've talked to about CMAA are thoughtful enough to realize that the fish puppets were stupid?

Kathy,

Of course. There were plenty of eyerolls that I could see, even at the Mass. That doesn't mean constantly griping about it paints the CMAA in a better light. It just looks petty.

Love me some conical chasubles.

Oh and BTW...I had to read it twice...but I did understand your post Dearest.

Kathy, clearly you now realize how wrong you were to ever question the liturgical use of flying fish.
The organizers simply have a deep devotion to St. Polycarp.

WHO ARE YOU TO DENY THEM?!

Traddies have their own secret liturgical code, too: Like the notion that fiddle-back chasubles are especially well-suited to liturgy (what?) or more beautiful than gothic or conical (how?!).

Meaning no disrespect, but first time I saw a fiddleback chasuable I thought Father was about to have his x-ray taken at the dentist's.

Who you calling a B, homey?

I understand. That's fine. But.

Most of the people in the pews there did not have anything to do with the ludicrous fish. (lutefisk fisk). They were subjected to it. They were stuck with it.

An "elite" small group would have organized this nonsense, and actually a lot of them wouldn't have wanted the fish either.

So I don't see why saying the ridiculous fish thing is ridiculous will be perceived as "bitchy." It's realistic, and obvious.

Well, embrace your fatigue and frustration and love it, Andrew, as it's calling you and all of us to a glory well beyond this silliness.
No, you're right, these discussions aren't helpful. However, I'd wager per capita that more of we CMAA make many more concessions out of loyalty, not fear, to practices at liturgy that we know in our heart do not advance the divine in the Divine Liturgy than those who are truly entrenched in the renewed status quo and are happy as porkers in slop that everyone's shouting it's party time again!
Oh yeah, that entrance was definitely about singing a new church into being. Trouble as noted, most folks FACP didn't involve actual singing. Mahrt would be happy if the soundtrack to the video was altered to an Introit of distinction, and the banners photoshopped out of the picture. Cause they fo sho were watching the Entrance. Of what, though?

Thanks for making that point, melo. They were trying to present an entrance procession worth looking at. I guess they thought they had to spend money to have artists make the kites and banners -- well, unless they were all corporate-sponsored and had product-placement logos that we couldn't see on the video.

FWIW, the video didn't capture the audio well. From what I heard, people (unfortunately) sang the processional hymn very well.

Melo, you're right about having to make concessions. I think we all here have made our share, and there were probably plenty at that Mass (I know someone involved with the planning, and some of the selections were definitely forced through by vocal demagogues).

Richard, you may be on to something without realizing it. The kites were on sale at the "expo" this week. I don't know whose idea it was to incorporate them.

So that I can clarify a bit of what I'm feeling, by the way (because you all care!), I attended a lecture today by Ed Schaefer in which he was disrespected by a few attendees. As has been mentioned in other threads, we're not even speaking the same language as many other musicians. My experience this week has given me hope, but it's also grounded me in realizing that where we have to begin in our work is further down the ladder than I had originally hoped.

I'm quite surprised that (Dcn.) Ed would be found at an NPM; but he's one sure-headed and unflappable, commited true disciple. To be next to him for five days in NOLA with Bartlett, Mahrt, Ron et al in the room was humbling. That guys/gals like Ed and Richard Rice, MACW and AOZ are willing to help RotR keep churning out in the hinterlands (I suppose that includes NPMLand) when they have "made their choice" is a testament to our fraternal charity towards all RC-dom. Happily, Ed can literally shake the dust off his sandals whenever.
I respect the heck outta AWR, JMThompson, W.Tortolano and all NPM chant enthusiasts. But AWR ought to get off the fence and lobby when needed. I have a feeling that even Friar Funk was "holding back" fully expressing his POV in that roundtable, and AWR seemed all about accomodation.

Holy fishsticks! Sharknado

The emperor is perhaps only partially naked, but his panties are definitely showing. I am glad NPM is moving more toward the center. As its members have aged, it was a bit inevitable. There is still a bit of 60s/70s self absorption there, but not so much as in past years. It is getting better, but the fish was a bit nutty.

A few months ago I started a thread asking for the differences between NPM and CMAA. Now I am more confused than ever, although, of course, my heart lies with CMAA and it's mission. On the other hand, however, after reviewing the liturgies in Rio the last week, I can't help but wonder if we are fighting a battle that just can't be won, especially when Pope Francis makes statements like "I want a mess". These comments will only fuel the fire of those who are anti-chant and sacred hymnody. We don't need a lot of dissention to NPM on this forum and remarks about their liturgy. We do need to make sure our people are catechized correctly. We make jokes about the use of these "fish puppets", but I'd like to know the significance of this puppetry. Surely they have a reason and it means something. Catechesis is everything. Last night at my first choir rehearsal back from vacations, I asked the choir several questions, one of which was "why are you engaging in a liturgical ministry?" To my horror, a couple of singers raised their hands and asked what I meant by "liturgical". It was an opportunity for catechesis, of course, but just another example of how much so many people really don't know. Perhaps those who used this puppetry thought it would "enhance" worship without having a real reason for it, or perhaps (and I'd rather think this way), the fish had a significant meaning. I don't know, but it doesn't help my cause in promoting sacred music and more solemn liturgies.

Make up your minds. Do we overlook this stuff and tell ourselves and others, "Yeah, but they did sing a little chant during the Mass. Let's call that a triumph," or do we declare that the emperor has no clothes?

Neither. Some of us in the Louisville area (where the last national NPM convention was held) were talking this morning about where all these various organizations are or have been going. Clearly, there are leaders on both sides (NPM and CMAA) who hold strong agendas. Thats okay with me. These strong agendas force me to look at the questions more closely. My parish has come from the "NPM" paradigm (everyone sing everything, everything is all good,etc) to a position more in line but not quite in step with the ideals of CMAA. Is that okay? Yes, it has to be. Catholicism is universal, but the universality has to be worked out locally. It takes time to change ( I am on the 10 year plan) because it takes formation and catechesis. And one has to see both organizations (and their work) in context. I am not part of NPM for many reasons. I live here for many other reasons. CMAA is part of my plan for many reasons. But my neighboring parish is nowhere near the ideals spoken of here. Yet, a little at a time, things move along because people move them along. People who are exposed, read and talk to each other. Clergy change....young ones come forth.

Neither fret about what they do, but also look seriously. Also, do not fret about what CMAA is doing but look seriously. Learn by seeing both bad and good, here and there. Yeah, you do not like what they did at NPM. Okay, speak earnestly and charitably why. Make a dialogue and also know some are not going to change. People at NPM make fun of you in CMAA. I know because I have heard it. You make fun of them. Yeah, this thread demonstrates that at times. Its the human condition. But seriously looking at the merits (or lack of merits) is what we really need.

I know of a parish in my area that is very angry liberal. Its no fun to go there to worship. There is also another parish, well known to many that also has a lot of angry conservatives. Its no fun either. Both parishes espouse anger over prayer.

Voila, you know the answer.

The problem in my parish, and I would suspect in other parishes is that the signs are not always self-evident. I would bet that at least 80% of my parish has no idea why the Deacon elevates the book or why the Host and Chalice are raised. It's habit and they accept that blindly. And, yes, what's most important is that our priests weave into their homilies imagery to trigger catechesis. But, unfortunately, a lot of priests, including my own pastor, do not do any of that and the faithful go home with little true knowledge of what just happened. Too many priests leave the job of catechesis of the masses to those designated as DRE's and they leave the job of convincing the faithful of the beauty of sacred music to music ministers. In my experience, even the most educated and knowledgeable lay person does not compare to the people's desire to hear things from the priest himself.

And, unfortunately, there are many, many parishes who "espouse anger over prayer". In my parish, there is an older couple that sits in the front pew every Sunday and do not participate at all. The husband sits quietly and the wife stares at the priest and me (I'm right next to the priest, literally...argh!), with her hands folded across her chest just waiting for the next opportunity for something to go against what she believes in proper worship and something she can go to her Wednesday evening social grouping and complain about.

My confusion with regard to NPM is that they seem to constantly go across the fence into the CMAA yard, but do so without a strong commitment to it, as though they are afraid to admit that what CMAA is doing can also be very good and strong. Yet, they incorporate into their masses, chant and sung propers, along with guitars and silly puppets. To the uncatechized, this is mass confusion.

Hands down.

Fish up.

Gather the fish, the guppies and sturgeons
Gather the fish, the cat and the gold

My confusion with regard to NPM is that they seem to constantly go across the fence into the CMAA yard, but do so without a strong commitment to it, as though they are afraid to admit that what CMAA is doing can also be very good and strong. Yet, they incorporate into their masses, chant and sung propers, along with guitars and silly puppets. To the uncatechized, this is mass confusion.

Careful with that last phrase, Jimmy Akin's copywrit that sucker, I believe.
Howabout we take NPM/CMAA out of the equation. We just got flying fish kites for an Entrance procession. Let's see how that could have come about?
Sure, yeah, I got it, I got it (and it's not Morgan Fairchild)*-
A Committee!!! Like those Liturgy Committees that were "mandated in the seventies!"
A bunch of, well, anybusybodies who want to be a talking head every time there's a meeting and the question is, "What shall we do this week?"

*obscure SNL reference.