In search of the ultimate hymnal
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Need a text box? Click text box tool. Make a text box.
    I mean, really- this isn't PHOTOSHOP we're talking about here.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Adobe is always more difficult than Microsoft. For my brain, anyway.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Apple products are sooooo much better!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    It's really a left brain/right brain thing that determines PC/MAC preference.

    Management types prefer PC where you get to choose which machine to buy, creative types prefer MAC where the machine and software is always compatible - creatives don't want to spend time trying to get things to work...management spends time controlling who is doing the work!

    Adobe software ported to run on PC's is never as as useful as when it is run on a MAC.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • lmassery
    Posts: 405
    The problem for me is not that I think MSWord is better for creating programs, just easier. I've tried scribus and I don't get it - the learning curve is too steep to overcome on my own without help. I can get things to look really convincing with MSWord, even though I do notice that it is inferior to InDesign. This is definitely not the same distinction as eagles wings to chant. It's more like solid orthodox hymns to chant. We have workshops and articles and tutorials and colloquiums for how to sing chant. Never seen anything like that for helping to create programs. I would pay for something like that.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    So I got the perfect hymnal for Christmas this year. One of my choristers gave me a copy of the Saint Gregory Hymnal. It has 150 hymns in English and 300 hymns and motets in Latin. It's a beautiful hymnal with a ribbon for keeping place and gold leading on the page edges.
    This to me is ultimate hymnal and will be using it often.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    @donr, that isn't the one edited by Nicola Montani (or Montini? One was a composer the other was Paul VI - I get them confused) is it?
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    @ Salieri, the cover reads as follows.

    The St. Gregory Hymnal
    and Catholic Choir Book
    To his Holiness, Pope Pius XII
    With Sentiments of Filial Devotion
    from
    Mrs. Nicola A. Montani.
    Complete Edition.

    The last copyright in the book is 'Copyright renewal assigned 1947, to The Saint Gregory Guild Inc., Phila. Pa.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Sorry, Donr,
    But the Gregory was the Gather Comprehensive of its era, just with more chefs.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    melo

    I think there were two or three motets by Palestrina and others from that era in the St. Gregory. Sorry, no comparison. Montani may have been schmultzy, but the texts were theologically in tact. Not so with GC. No comparison. And, aren't there actual Gregorian Chants in the SG?
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Melo, I haven't really checked into it extensively, but from the Latin Hymns and Motets are Gregorian Chants, hymns by Haydn, Montani, Ravanello, Schubert, Gounod, Victoria, Mozart, Palestrina, Perosi, Webbe and many more.

    The Masses are:
    Mass of the B.V.Mary, Requiem Mass (Chant), and Missa de Angelis.

    I don't know GC, But I can tell you just from the list above its better than anything OCP puts out.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    It's a mixed bag. Perhaps it's a good beginning for some programs moving towards reverence. I would choose carefully, though.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Yes, that was the hymnal that I used as a child growing up singing in a 40 person boys choir in Columbus Ohio. Like Kathy says, it's a mixed bag, but it is much more solid than most hymnals out there today for sure.
  • ChantingOrgan
    Posts: 36
    Worship, Fourth edition
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Um, no.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I agree with Melo. Just because a hymnal is old doesn't mean it's good.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I know but what hymnal today has all the motets with harmonizations and Gregorian Chant w/ organ scores:
    Adoramus Te Christe - by Dubios and Palestrina,
    Ave Verum Corpus - by Gounod, Daens, Mozart, Guilmant, and the Gregorian Chant.
    O Bone Jesu - Palestrina
    All the Marian Seasonal Antiphons in motet and Gregorian Chant.

    It may not be the Ultimate Hymnal from days of old but its better than anything we have today, hands down.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I have a few ancient and well worn copies of the Greg. I do not think that it is as high quality contents wise as Teddy Marier's Pius X Hymnal, and I don't think that it is very user-friendly for a Congregation - especially not an OF Congregation since most of the contents are in Latin. Many of the items are good for incomplete choirs since they could be sung SA, SAB, or SATB, but even with that it can be tricky because of the typography: Where the Pius X would have the three parts separated into two or three staves, the Greg. has all three parts on one stave - it can be confusing even for a trained musician to follow, let alone beginners in a choir.

    The best EF hymnal for Congregational use that I have seen is the New St. Basil Hymnal - for Choir use, the Pius X Hymnal.

    Apart from which, many of the titles in the St. Gregory that are worth having are in the Catholic Choir Book, or on CPDL or IMSLP for free.
    Thanked by 1CeciliaJulia
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Look folks, I actually employed the Gregory when I first came up in 70, and yes there were many poorer hymnals (Mt. St. Mary's comes to mind) and better ones (St. Basil, St. Pius.) But there are two other mitigating factors for my general disdain of it (even though I keep a stack handy at the church for exegencies)-
    1. Montani's hand (and ego) is rife throughout it. It reminds me of when Rv. Marchiando (sp?) had fairly complete editorial control of WLP after Westendorf's retirement/death.
    2. Montani's legacy as a musician serving the Church is far from impeccable. Besides having a very large say in the compilation of the Blacklist, he also personally impugned many peers and predecessor colleagues along the eastern seaboard to Ohio/Missouri dioceses.

    To me, this matters. It is one thing to champion someone whose music you prefer, such as a Giffen, Koerber, Kwasniewski or Rice. It is quite another to bad mouth others whose music you don't, such as Schutte, Joncas or Hurd, even if you couch such dismissals under the guise of "they harm the Church."
    Like Montani, none of us is impeccable, so we all have to weigh the cost/benefit factor when using their resources. But that isn't tantamount to throwing the first stone. YMMV
    Thanked by 3Salieri gregp CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I know a program that went from Be Not Affeeared (thank you G!) through the St. Gregory to a place where they were ready to begin learning chant and polyphony.

    The St. Gregory can be an excellent first step for a group that never met a motet before. It has plenty of indisputable classics and a bright blue cover and that "official" look that has the power to attract the "buy in" necessary with a volunteer choir. Handouts can't always do that.
    Thanked by 2gregp CeciliaJulia
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Kathy, fair and valid point. As I allow as how they can come in handy on the spur of a moment's need, there is value. That said, I wouldn't spend dime one beyond one reference copy for a schola/choir, much less parish on the SG.
    For pedagogical purposes, thanks to Chuck Giffen, CPDL is a titanic-sized better reference with indices galore, and at very reasonable pricing. ;-)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ChantingOrgan
    Posts: 36
    Um, no.

    Then Gather? Breaking Bread? The Methodist Hymnal?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Worship III over Worship IV.
    Worship II over Worship III.

    St. Michael IV is currently the most useful imho. I haven't looked closely at the post-translation hymnals, though.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    Then Gather? Breaking Bread? The Methodist Hymnal?


    Is this some kind of joke?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Worship III over Worship IV.
    Worship II over Worship III.


    There's been a sort of a reverse evolution.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ghmus7
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Richard, so true, sigh....
    Overall, the apex was WII, nadir W4, IMO.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Can you open up a publisher in indesign?
    The reason I ask is thst I got years of programs in pub and I am thinking of moving to indesign.
    anybody know?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    http://markzware.com/pub2id/adobe-plugin-convert-publisher-indesign/

    bit pricy, but will save you tons of time and pay for itself quickly.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I put in another plug for the St. Michaels. Very happy with it.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    James Frazier offers a comprehensive review of the new WLP hymnal over at PTB.
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