Latin And All That Goes With It
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Clearly, we don't attend the same parish. LOL. We are doing Easter asperges and singing Vidi Aquam through Pentecost. The only time I have heard the "Good morning" has been from a visiting priest, never the pastor or associate pastor.

    Now why would the usage of the Roman Curia be so great it could replace all the other rites of Europe? Sounds a bit heavy handed to me. How is that different from Paul VI mandating a new order of mass?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    WICatholic, you sound like the kind of person I would greet at the choir room door and welcome in at once.
    Thanked by 2WICatholic Gavin
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    CharlesW: Apologies all round if my post above sounds somewhat harsh. I can get a bit worked-up over things I care passionately about!

    I do most heartily agree with you that neither you, nor I, nor anyone here on the Forum (unless HH Francis lurks here) has the authority to change the Missal. And I hope, that we are all taking this discussion/debate is a scholarly way, not personally.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    There's never anything personal - well, I don't always know with Adam - LOL. I am surprised we haven't heard from him on this.

    I take a pragmatic approach that this is what I have to work with in my parish, so I will do the best I can with it. Now I know I am blessed in having a pastor who is a stickler for rubrics and knows music inside out.

  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    I am just glad there are people like you guys around yet!! Seriously, I was going mad thinking I am the only one passionate about the way the Mass is done, in a traditional, sacred way.

    It just came to me what Latin songs they have been playing. During the Easter vigil... Jesu Rex admirabilis... that in addition to the now regular Angus Dei since Lent. They have also been playing Christus Resurrexit as well at least a couple times recently. Just absolutely beautiful music...
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    I forgot to mention that Christus Resurrexit was sung during the Easter Vigil with both the male and female choirs, with them singing either humming or the lyrics. I believe they were playing the cello during it as well. It brought shivers down my spine...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    I can't speak for Francis, but respected scholars have used the word "fabrication" in discussing the reformed liturgy of 1970: perhaps most famously Cdl. Ratzinger, in his preface to Klaus Gamber's book. This would not mean that it is inauthentic, but that it was "constructed" or "manufactured" and not the result of a long evolution.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Thanks for the reminder on the ref, Chonak.

    Here's the whole ball o' wax.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/davies.htm
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,218
    The Orthodox, btw, rejoice that they don't have popes who can mess around with the liturgy.


    And the Orthodox liturgy is in Greek (or Old Slavonic), much of it is celebrated behind closed gates, and doesn't brook of any folderol from the congregation.

    Yes, it's good, indeed, that the Orthodox don't suffer from ICEL, BCL, and Bugnini.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,678
    Here is another quote from Michael Davies "Liturgical Shipwreck" which talks about one of Paul VI closest friends Jean Guitton. It is very revealing.

    Liturgical Shipwreck

    by Michael Davies

    Part 1

    ON THE third of April this year, the year of Our Lord 1994, there occurred an anniversary, an unhappy anniversary, perhaps the unhappiest anniversary in the history of the Catholic Church. On that date, twenty-five years ago, Pope Paul VI announced in his Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum that the Missal promulgated in 1570 by his illustrious predecessor, St. Pius V, was to be replaced by one promulgated on his own authority. In obedience to the Council of Trent and as a rebuttal of the Protestant heresy, St. Pius V had codified the rite of Mass celebrated in Rome at that time, a rite of Mass that had developed gradually and naturally over almost a millennium and a half. St. Pius V stated specifically that he wished the order of Mass found in the traditional Catholic Missal to remain unchanged in perpetuity, and rightly so, for by 1570 it had come as near to absolute perfection as anything upon this earth can ever do. It was with good reason that Father Frederick Faber described the traditional Mass as "the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven." 1 It was with good reason that Cardinal Newman, who possessed perhaps the greatest intellect of any Catholic in the history of the English-speaking world, said that he could attend it forever and not be tired. 2

    In issuing a new Mass, Pope Paul VI apparently believed that he could improve upon the Traditional Mass of the Roman Rite, and he indulged in an effort to make the Mass more understandable for our time. But in the process he broke with the unbroken tradition of all his predecessors and did something hitherto unknown in the history of the Church-----in the East or the West: He appointed a committee to concoct a new order of Mass, a Novus Ordo Missae, an action that the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council did not so much as envisage, let alone mandate. The only precedent for a radical reform of the liturgy is found among the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformers. I have mentioned elsewhere that a principal objective of the Missal of St. Pius V was to act as a rebuttal of Protestantism-----by showing that in the public manifestation of its Eucharistic belief the Catholic Church would not make the least concession to the Protestant heresy. On the contrary, the intention of Pope Paul VI in compiling his new missal appears to have been to conciliate Protestants. In a gesture that it is still almost impossible to believe actually took place, Pope Paul asked six Protestant theologians to advise him on the composition of a new rite for that very Sacrifice of the Mass, the repudiation of which is a fundamental axiom of the Protestant heresy. 3 The extent of the willingness of this unhappy pope to sacrifice even the most sacred traditions of our faith to placate heretics was revealed to its full extent for the first time in an interview broadcast over French radio on December 19, 1993 by Jean Guitton, one of the closest friends of Pope Paul VI. Guitton made public the fact that the Pope had confided to him that his purpose in reforming the liturgy was not simply that it would correspond as closely as possible to Protestant forms of worship, but with that of the Calvinist sect, one of the most extreme manifestations of the Protestant heresy. Guitton's revelation shows how perceptive was the comment by Monsignor Klaus Gamber that the drastic curtailment of solemnity in the liturgy means that Catholics "are now breathing the thin air of Calvinistic sterility." 4 I must make it clear at this point that I do not believe that Pope Paul VI was in any way unorthodox in his personal belief in the Eucharist; no one who reads his Credo of the People of God or his encyclical Mysterium Fidei could allege this. His motivation seems to have been the same misguided zeal for ecumenism that prompted him, while Secretary of State for the Vatican, to engage in clandestine discussions with Anglican clergy that he knew to be contrary to the policy of Pope Pius XII. 5

    Rather, I intend to prove that, as already mentioned, the very composition of a New Order of the Mass is a break with tradition, that the changes made in the Traditional Mass of the Roman Rite since Vatican Council II go far beyond what that Council authorized and, in some cases, actually contradict what it mandated. I propose to show that we have been the witnesses of a revolution, rather than a reform, and that the revolution of Pope Paul VI has produced no good fruits to compensate for its destruction of our almost 2,000-year-old liturgical inheritance.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    In the original St. Peter's in Rome, the liturgy was celebrated behind enclosed walls and archaeological excavations have proven there was a "Holy of Holies" reminiscent of the Jerusalem temple. I will have to get out my Gamber book, but I think he touches on that with illustrations.

    St. Pius V stated specifically that he wished the order of Mass found in the traditional Catholic Missal to remain unchanged in perpetuity, and rightly so, for by 1570 it had come as near to absolute perfection as anything upon this earth can ever do.


    I doubt that absolute perfection since the mass came closer to perfection in the 5th century than it did in the 16th century. It had changed by then.

    I have to give ICEL a break. They have improved on the translation in use until the new missal was published. It is definitely better. They couldn't, however, rewrite the Latin original and could only translate it as accurately as they were able.

    And the Orthodox liturgy is in Greek (or Old Slavonic),...


    Many of the Orthodox liturgies are in the vernacular. The local Greek church has about half English and half Greek since they are no longer an immigrant population. The Russians outside the U.S. still use OCS, but like many Slavic languages the similarities are greater than the differences.

    His motivation seems to have been the same misguided zeal for ecumenism that prompted him, while Secretary of State for the Vatican, to engage in clandestine discussions with Anglican clergy that he knew to be contrary to the policy of Pope Pius XII. 5


    It is my understanding that Pius XII considered Paul dangerous and sent him away from Rome. Paul was a Vatican diplomat and never much of a pastor. I consider him to be one of the most inept and ineffectual popes in my lifetime and am puzzled by the attempts to canonize him. No one in a position of authority seems willing to call him an educated idiot out of touch with reality. I have wondered if some of the extreme Fatima devotees have considered that Paul VI and the aftermath of the council might have been what she was warning against.

  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    Also, Eucharistic Prayer I (Roman Canon) was originally to be cast aside, Paul VI forced Bugnini to put it back after cardinatial outcry.

    Do you have a source for this, because that is not my understanding of what happened. Early on it was decided to keep the Roman Canon more or less as is, since proposals to reform it (including one by Hans Küng) were all seen as inadequate. Cypriano Vagaggini documents these early proposals and the problems with them in the Canon of the Mass and Liturgical Reform. As far as I know it was never suggested that the Canon be thrown out.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    NB: edit.

    Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II, Michael Davies, Tan Books.:

    The entire Canon was indeed cast aside by Bugnini and his Consilium—but it was restored, to their regret, on the insistence of Pope Paul VI.


    Taken from: http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/vatican_liturgy.htm. The footnote in Davies' book references Bugnini's book Reform of the Liturgy - 1948-1975, Liturgical Press, 1990.

    I remember also, (I know, hear-say, yadah-yadah) a friend of mine (one of the founders of St. Benedict Priory in Petersham, MA) who had several in-depth conversations with Louis Boyer about the Liturgical "Reform" told me that Boyer mentioned that it had been proposed (by Bugnini & Co.) at meetings of the consilium to remove the Roman Canon, and that various members of the commission appealed to Paul VI to mandate its inclusion in the new Ordo Missae.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    While I would be interesting in seeing the sources, I remain skeptical. Certainly in 1965 Vagaggini, who was a key mover and shaker on the reform of the Eucharistic Prayer, was not contemplating throwing out, or even significantly reforming, the canon. He does mention that "some" (unnamed) had advocated simply using Hippolytus, but he dismisses this as an unworkable proposal.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I can tell you this, WICatholic: If your music director is introducing some Latin, he'd love to do more, but needs the open support of people in the congregation. And he probably needs more voices helping out. You have an obvious support for good music and liturgy, so talk to your music director post-haste, and ask what you can do to help him do more traditional music!
  • FCB,

    I would recommend Bugnini's own work on the topic, Reform of the Liturgy 1948-1975,or something by Fr. Gelineau. Straight from the horse's mouth would be much better than anything else. I suppose you could consult Archbishop Marini?
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    I attest I have read every post. All I can say is wow. Just wow.