• Claire H
    Posts: 368

    Friends,

    I was having a discussion with one of our deacons tonight who is rather upset by the level of chant in the Mass (and we have, I would say, a moderate amount...still lots of hymns). He seems to think we are the only parish around chanting the communion antiphon.

    A bit of explanation: I have been MD here for about a year. For several months, I have chanted the Communion antiphon and Gloria (not the Psalm) from SEP at the beginning of communion. Then the singers/choir go receive, and afterward another piece is sung. My goal has been just to introduce the concept of a communion antiphon, and to work toward having a small group of singers do it, and also include the Psalm.

    This deacon said it always seems like a performance to him to have me sing it in a solo voice. And he seems to think it's just because the pastor and I like/want it that it's being incorporated.

    I mentioned that many parishes are making use of the SEP...so to follow up on that statement, I'd like to take a survey here:

    1. How many of you are using the SEP?
    2. In what capacity?
    3. With adults/children?
    4. How many of the antiphons?
    5. Are you a cantor, choir member, or MD?
    1. Yes, at all four weekend Masses, and two daily Masses.
      1. 5:30 PM Tue, 7:30 AM Wed, 4 PM Sat, 5:30 PM Sat: Cantor
      2. 8:30 AM Sun: Mixed Choir
      3. 10:30 AM Sun: Mixed Ensemble
    2. In the proper liturgical places, in addition to hymns ("stuffed" Mass approach; 8:30 AM Sun excludes Offertory hymn: see below).
    3. Adults.
    4. All three antiphons, plus Offertory verses (8:30 AM Sun) and Communion verses (all Masses).
    5. DM.
    6. St. Mary, Pine Bluff, WI/St. Ignatius, Mount Horeb, WI (Diocese of Madison).
  • Claire H
    Posts: 368

    Thank you!

    One more:

    6. What city/state are you? If you don't mind, you can include parish name too. :)
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    1. One Mass a weekend out of 4
    2. Same as Aristotle
    3. Adults and college
    4. As many as fit the time (it's a small Mass)
    5. Choir member
    6. Blessed John XXIII, Fort Collins CO
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    1. Three Masses of five for sure, not sure about the others, though.
    2. In what capacity? In the proper liturgical places, in addition to hymns
    3. With adults/children? Adults
    4. How many of the antiphons? Depends on the length/complexity of the antiphons. Sometimes at the beginning and end, sometimes after each verse. Sometimes it's solo, schola, basses only, trebles only, mixed.
    5. Are you a cantor, choir member, or MD? Choir director
    6. Toronto

    (BTW, some people are having some difficulty here too.)
  • I am using it for the late Sunday Morning Mass at my Dad's parish. Whenever I substitute at my parish, I chant the Communion antiphon. My Dad's pastor is used to it and the faithful are used to it as well. My parochial vicar likes the Communion antiphon.

    It is work for me to learn something new every week, as I am barely learning how to read music. But, it is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

    I am not a music director; just a volunteer cantor.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    All three antiphons.
    Sundays with a bilingual parish.
    Fridays at a school mass (different parish).
    Children's schola. They're great.
    Organ accompaniments (posted in another thread).

    Not a music director.
    Cantor/organist.
    Part-time at both parishes.
    (neither has a music director)
  • This deacon said it always seems like a performance to him to have me sing it in a solo voice. And he seems to think it's just because the pastor and I like/want it that it's being incorporated


    Clare, before getting to the poll, you might charitably respond to the deacon's concern asking if he also believes that when he is delivering his homily it would be appropriate that you and others be invited to participate with him in that office? Based upon his anticipated response, you would then be on solid ground to remind him that the GIRM assigns the propers to either a choir or a solo cantor. Goose and gander, same rules.

    1. In use at our four parish cluster.
    2. At Masses directed by myself, or the principle organist, generally five Masses in three of four parishes.
    3. adults
    4. Introit, Communio: always; Offertorio: 2 Masses
    5. DM (not an MD, but have played one on TV.)
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Hey Charles,
    Just curious if you guys use the organ accompaniments.
    You're a heavy-hitter so I'm interested. :)
  • Well, I am heavy, very heavy....sigh.
    Answer: depends, at schola Mass our gifted organist improvises accompaniments quite deftly. Others, a capella, particularly if it's just myself, or a few of us that do double duty at two back to back Masses.
    Adam will doubtless be relieved to know I've never employed the dread guitar!
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • 1. In use at our parish, at all 3 weekend Masses
    2. Introit is sung before an entrance hymn. When we begin using the Communion, it will replace the hymn
    3. Cantor at 2 Masses, full choir (mixed adults and older children) at 1
    4. Currently just the Introit; will be adding the Communion at the beginning of Lent
    5. Full-time music director
    6. St. Dunstan, Garden City, MI
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    1. No SEP, but we've long had 3 psalm-tone propers by the former MD along the lines of Burt's Anglican Use Gradual.
    2. These are still used every other Saturday, when the children's choir is off.
    3. Cantors
    4. The introit alone survives at Sunday 8:30, except when the Gregorian tune uses mode vii; this is because of the lusty congregational singing of the Gloria Patri. Gradual is Guimont; Offertory is Burgess, Ford or some other; Comm. is almost always Latin with English verse, followed by a hymn. At 11:00 only the Communio is chanted while choir receives.
    5. Cantor & acting choir director
    6. St. David of Wales, Richmond CA
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Yes, we are. At Christ the King School in Oklahoma City.

    1. At every weekly school Mass, a mix between Anglican Use Gradual and SEP.
    2. Mostly at the Communion proper, occasionally Offertory.
    3. Children, ages 8-11.
    4. Usually one, occasionally two.
    5. I'm the school music teacher, and the parish MD plays organ for the Mass.

    The SEP are great tools for learning and teaching. Every week, I have little girls saying "That thing is a punctum mora, but we forgot to get softer!" or little boys saying "Hey look! That's a horizontal episema; hold it longer, you guys!" Thank you, Mr. Bartlett.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    We are getting back to Propers... things got derailed this past year. We have been singing the Communion at all three masses, and I am hoping to start using the others sometime in the not too distant future.

    The SEP is a great resource... thanx again, Adam.
  • @Richard Mix
    Is EFT still organist at St. David's? (I was in parish in 80's, tho' was DM at St. John the Baptist in El Cerrito for ten years.)
  • In my parish (Powell, WY - St. Barbara [I really doubt anyone from there that might take offense at my comments would be on here...]) I am an organist, cantor, and director of the children's choir. However, I'm not the main organist and music director for the parish - we unfortunately have an organist and cantors who've been established here for decades and who have no sense about proper liturgical music whatsoever - roughly half the hymns they do are good, but they have no idea that those are better than Schutte, Haugen, Haas etc. which they do the other half of the time. My pastor tried to start working me into the parish music scene as soon as I moved here (he realizes that, frankly, I'm a better musician than the other folks), but he's not going to remove those others from the primary position, so to speak, for quite a while, if ever. All that being said, whenever I cantor, play the organ, or have the children's choir sing at Mass (those three things altogether end up meaning that I do the music for about a quarter of the Masses here on average), I do the offertory and communion SEP at their proper places, and have recently started doing the introit just prior to the procession (as my pastor will not allow us to take away the entrance hymn, at least not yet). The response has been good so far. I get a few people after every Mass telling me that they really like it because when I do the music the Mass has a whole different tone than when the other organist/cantors do it, and that different tone I attribute to the inclusion of the SEP (because other than that I do hymns just as the other musicians do, albeit ALL of my hymns are on the more traditional side).
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    ElizabethS - thank you for sharing this. Believe it or not, it is reminiscent of times past - nearly 30 years ago - but then guitars, drums, hootenanny, and groovy groove were all the rage. I barely made a difference, except to a few, and my efforts went largely unappreciated.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    We use them a little bit. I'm a long-term sub MD/organist, and we use it with our adult choir of about 12 people, oh, maybe once a month for offertory or communion.
  • 1. One Mass per week, plus all holy days and confirmation, Solemnities
    2. Introits. Communions acapella, sometimes we find a congregation antiphonl to alternate with the schola's propers.
    3. both
    4. at least 2 antiphons or a Latin proper
    5. a pianorganist
    all ordinaries are chant and we always do one happy-smiley song per week.
    We sing Fr Kelly's and Fr. Weber's Chants too.
  • 1. 1 Sunday Mass out of 4 (At the main or "high" Mass) every week.
    2. All of the Antiphons. Introit is preceded by a hymn, we do one verse of the psalm.
    Offertory Antiphon without psalm verses, followed by a hymn or motet
    Communion Antiphon with psalm verses, followed by a hymn or motet
    3. Men's Schola for Antiphon, Alternating psalm verses with women of the choir. Trying to get the people to sing with the women in alternating verses. (Just about to start that practice)
    4. All
    5. Cantor/MD

    Would love to use these with a children's choir...
  • We don't impress or entertain. Humility is a core spiritual value.

    While I agree that drawing attention to self shouldn't be the goal of any musician at Mass, too much emphasis on this point has been the core of mediocrity in music performance in the liturgy for decades. Performance is simply the means by which music is accomplished.

    Someone should ask the above deacon if he sings the Exsultet in a solo voice. Does he hold something back? Why or why not?
  • I probably shouldn't respond to Clare's poll. This owing to my being of the Anglican Use and only sporadically involed in normal Roman rite liturgy. But, if I were choirmaster in such a parish, I WOULD BE using the SEP at all masses at which there was music; at least nearly all of them: the Palmer-Burgess propers, Bruce Ford's work, Fr Columba Kelly's and a very few others would also be used, especially at the principal choir mass.

    The deacon who inserted this thorn in your side is on very infirm ground, and shows much ill-informed personal bias in having done so. Why do people regard solo or choir-alone singing as mere performance, whilst those (like him) whose ministry involves speaking are never regarded as having 'performed'? A fitting response to his observation that yours is the only parish singing the propers would be that, 'well, IF that is true, then we are the only ones doing what we should be doing in answer to Vatican II'. As for that bette noir, 'performance': it is nothing to be ashamed of or to be made to feel guilty of. All who are present, from clergy, to cantors, to choir, and to congregation should very well put on their very best and most thoughtful performance of their respective parts of the mass: to offer less to Him Who is Worthy of All, is to be remiss in the extreme. Those who show disrespect for others who do the very best that they are able with the talents they have been given, and assert pridefully that THEY are ONLY praising God seem rather blind: they may only be pleasing themselves with very care-less efforts. This, often disguised as humility, is really rather proudful. The parable of the talents is as applicable in liturgy as it is in other areas of our lives.

    The SEP propers are highly commendable and should be a part of every choir's and cantor's and congregation's repertory. Bravo to you for using them. Don't be bullied from doing so. And offer a thankful prayer each day that you have the pastor you have.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen JDE Claire H
  • Clement, as much as I appreciate being addressed by my preferred nickname, I think you've misunderstood (at best) or misappropriated (at worst) that quote out of context to support your assertions. To what end I'm not sure.
    Your understanding of the role of the leader of song is apt and would that there were most of these folks who didn't view their roles as Mr/Ms Caruso's, we'd all be the better for that. But the official roles of Cantor and Psalmist are quite distinct from that, though in practice often combined to some degree.
    There is substantial legislation that has been cited to the Nth degree by many authorities and scholars that the chanting of the propers (specifically) is officially assigned to a schola or choir only, and in their stead a chanter qualified to be a Cantor in the more antiquated and official understanding of that role. (And mention should be made that this "solo" Cantor is not in the German or European model where it generally means the Dirigent, or DM of parish music.) The Cantor would also chant the Gradual and Alleluia/Tract verses (and antiphon if a schola isn't present) quite licitly under the GIRM as I understand it. But....
    The more interesting issue, for moi, is that why would you take issue in my direction? I personally make distinctions that are not in concord with those authorities and scholars and have accounted for that in two distinct postings at Cafe and Optima Musica. In addition I have concurred with your broader assertion of FACP that allows and encourages congregational singing of vernacular proper processionals (by Tietze, Rice, Bartlett, P.Ford, Pluth and their progenitors) whenever and wherever possible.
    And mysteriously to the max, where did you come up with the idea that I endorse the notion of the operatic song leader? I don't possess that ability nor practice that sort of abuse personally, nor never recall advancing that notion.
    Where's the beef?
    Thanked by 1[Deleted User]
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    It most certainly IS okay to "sound like an opera singer" at Mass if you are an opera singer. Shall we put the singers out of the church, and try to make them recant their profession on their deathbed as was attempted with Molière?

    A thousand times NO. I have a modest talent that I have developed and polished over the years, and that I continue to polish as best I can in the time I have. I will not just stick it under a basket for fear of offending some musical Pitchfork Ben Tillman who is insistent that no one have any more talent than anyone else. To me, this is the worst sort of parsimony.

    My advice to those who have trained voices is that they should use the talents God has given them. Do not be ashamed, or allow anyone to cow you into silence or half-singing, because you fear being taken for a "performer." Truly - should Father mumble and hesitate so as to make the halt of speech more comfortable? To this I would also say no.

    Peace be with you all, every one -- peace and healthy, robust singing. I don't think God intends for us to sing like "men without chests."
  • I use the SEP Offertory and Communion chants at both Masses at our small parish each weekend. When I first began using the SEP chants, I started with the Offertory chant instead of a hymn. Since I had eliminated a hymn, we got many complaints. Now I have the congregation and choir sing an offertory hymn and then I follow up with singing just the antiphon (no psalm verses) of the Offertory proper just before Fr. begins his ablutions.

    For the Communion chant, I sing it right after the peoples' chanted response of "Lord, I am not worthy..." Sometimes I sing one of the psalm verses, but mostly not, depending on the length of the chant. After that, the choir receives Communion, after which we all sing a hymn.

    For both propers, I sing them unaccompanied by myself. I tried, early on, to teach the cantors to read the square note notation so that they could either sing them solo or with me, but it proved to be of no interest to them (and they just didn't want to do it), so at least for now, that's the situation. I knew my tenure at this parish would be short, so I have not insisted on this issue with the singers. I now frequently receive positive comments from the people in the parish.

    One thing I do to increase information for the people is provide the text of the propers for each week in the same handout as the weekly list of songs to be sung during Mass. It seems to help with the message that these antiphons are not arbitrary, but are proper to the Mass.

    I should mention that my pastor is very supportive of chant and has made a huge effort himself to chant as much of his part as he can during the Mass. Our parish sings all the Missal chant ordinaries each week and has done very well with it. We even sang the Credo at Christmas and are gearing up to do it again for Easter. (Gearing up means plenty of refresher time with the choir at rehearsal and short practices of it before Mass with the people for 3-4 weekends before Easter to try to teach them -- or at least those of them who don't slip into the church moments before the opening hymn starts!).

    Forgot to mention... I am parish music director for a military parish at Warner Robins AFB, GA.
  • 102. It is the psalmist’s place to sing the Psalm or other biblical canticle to be found between the readings. To carry out this function correctly, it is necessary for the psalmist to be accomplished in the art of singing Psalms and have a facility in public speaking and elocution.

    103. Among the faithful, the schola cantorum or choir exercises its own liturgical function, its place being to take care that the parts proper to it, in keeping with the different genres of chant, are properly carried out and to foster the active participation of the faithful by means of the singing.[86] What is said about the schola cantorum also applies, with due regard for the relevant norms, to other musicians, and especially the organist.

    104. It is fitting that there be a cantor or a choir director to direct and support the people’s singing. Indeed, when there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to direct the different chants, with the people taking the part proper to them.[87]

    As has been mentioned elsewhere, hundreds of times, whether using the GR, GM or SEP, the proper chants may or may not be accessible to the abilities of any given congregation to negotiate. Jeffrey Tucker illustrates this reality in an article about the discipline of chanting challenging and "long" propers such as "Qui habitat" in a recent Cafe article.
    I hope this clarifies both our perspectives.

    Pride is numbered 1st on the our list of deadly sins. (I thought as you until I studied our faith thoroughly).
    Clement, I hope you'll allow and forgive my misunderstanding of what still remains a mystery as to why your concern was addressed to me as an ad hominem. And you should allow as how this presumption on your part ("I thought as you until...") combined with the license to use my nickname (not commonly known nor used here) seemed a bit too personal. We agree totally upon the sin of pride, a condition I strive daily to avoid, and do fail in that often.

    Side note to JDE- I certainly meant no disrepute to your contention! As you know, I've asked you to will me your voice when you no longer need it. And I know the care and, again, discipline, you exercise whenever you cantor.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    My colleague and I are using a mix of the Roman Gradual, SEP, Fr. Weber's Simple Gradual, Willans' Introits and Psalm-tone settings from the (alas, no-longer) Gregorian Institute of America.

    1) 2 of 3 weekend Masses (Sunday 8:00 and 10:30), and 5 of 6 daily Masses (Tues pm - Sat am; the Monday am is silent)

    2) In proper Liturgical places and some hymns and motets ("stuffed Mass") except in Lent at the 10:30 Mass we have nixed the offertory Hymn and sing only the antiphon and verses.

    3) Adults and Children mixed. Sometimes sung by cantor(s) or choir or sections based on difficulty and variety.

    4) All three antiphons (Introit, Offertory and Communion) and the Tract in Lent at 10:30.

    5) I am organist and DM, and director of the St. Cecilia Choir (sings at 10:30 Sunday), and a tenor/cantor with the St. Gregory Choir (8:00 Sunday)

    6) Our Lady of Czestochowa, Turners Falls, Mass.

    As far as I know we are the only parish in the deanery that uses chant on a daily basis, and people have remarked at how holy and sacred it sounds (well, yeah! That's why its called "Sacred Music" after all!), whether its sung by a full choir or just a single cantor.

    One thing that can make a difference when it comes to "solo" music is the position of the choir. We sing in a gallery, so the only thing that people can see when they look up is the director's/organist's back, which helps, I think, to get rid of the "performance" aspect since we're not up in front.

    Perhaps Rev'd Pastor might want to introduce Rev'd Mr Deacon to the GIRM, or perhaps send him to the Colloquium this summer!
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I am a cantor at my dad's parish. I use the SEP Introit and Communion antiphons. There have been no complaints, thus far. When I cantor at my parish, I use the SEP Communion antiphon (and, whenever I am asked to fill in for the Spanish-language cantor), I will be using Fr. Spencer's settings (as they become available). For the Ash Wednesday Mass at my parish, I used the SEP Introit and Comnmunion antiphons. We received a lot of positive feed back from the faithful.
    Thanked by 1Claire H
  • Respectfully, Clement VII, I'm really not sure what beef you have with Charles. Your posts don't seem to correspond.

    Now to the poll:
    1.) We are using the SEP for the Introit, which we sing after we begin with the Processional Hymn (omitted during Lent); the priest processes up during the final verse and then, as he approaches the altar and, on occasion, incenses it, we sing the Proper refrain, vs. 1, the Glory Be and then the refrain again. We sing the Communion Antiphon in its duration and follow it with a Communion Hymn taken from the St. Michael Hymnal.

    2.) We use these for every one of the four Saturday evening, Sunday Morning Masses, be it with our two choirs or our cantors.

    3.) The children and adults both sing from them. I also write the Introit chant for every Friday morning school Mass, sung usually by the 5th and 6th grade choir (around 32 kids total).

    4.) We sing the Introit and the Communion. Not the Offertory, yet.

    5.) I am the music director/organist. We sing them a cappella.

    6.) Sioux Falls, South Dakota
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I forgot to mention that I chant them a cappella, both at my dad's parish and at my parish.
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    1. SEP for 3 Mass as on Sundays, sung by choir or schola. Replaced by antiphons from the Graduale Romanum on solemnities.
    2. For Introit, antiphon only, before hymn; except when we can get away with inverting that order. For Communio, antiphon only at the beginning (and sometimes at the end) of Communion.
    3. Yes, adults and children.
    4. Introit and Communio.
    5. Music director
    6. Leawood, Kansas