For All Thy Saints Still Striving
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Our schola is asked to sing at the Basilica in our diocese with the Archbishop in October 18, white Mass for Physicians. (first time for us) For the recession we are thinking of "For All Thy Saints Still Striving," with the verse to St. Luke, saint for the physician. Where can I find the hymn? I don't think it's in the public domain. Thanks.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    Worship III, #706. It's also in the 1982 (Episcopal hymnal).
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    hmmm, maybe it should be added to PBEH?

    Here is another version of For All the Saints
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    There's a lovely setting of Charles Kingsley's poem 'From Thee all skill and science flow, all pity, care and love...' in 1940 Hymnal Hymn Tune Albano by Vincent Novello. Only two lines long. 4vss.

    Donna
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    OK, in Ritualsong, there is a setting of "BY all your saints still striving" #887 St. Theodulph- (All glory, laud and honor) witha zillion verses for various saints, apostles, etc. Luke is on the next page.

    Donna
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    I know there will be many questions of taste/preference/personal experience to be settled in the compilation of this magnificent project; and I had determined to try not to interject anything of the sort, (since neither my theology nor aesthetic discrimination is of a very high order,) but I have not the virtue of continence, and my resolutions are for naught.

    I am BEGGING -- Sine Nomine, please? (for "...the...", not "... they...")
    It's PD according to more recent hymnals

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    I'm not buying it if Sine Nomine isn't in there! LOL
    Donna
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    Will a tune by Ralph Vaughan Williams be appearing in a Public Domain Hymnal 101....there will be a test.

    Ralph Vaughan Williams died in 1958.

    He gave nothing away, which means everything he wrote is probably copyright.

    In addition, while copyright is based upon the life of the composer when it comes to music, when the music is created as a work project for a publisher, such as Oxford, the term is extended under British Copyright Law to an even longer time of protection.

    From a useful website:

    United States Copyright Law
    US copyright law is found in Title 17 of the United States Code and is administered by the US Copyright Office. " Terms for Copyright Protection", a U.S. Government publication, summarizes the current duration of copyright protection for published works as follows:

    * Works created after 1/1/1978 - life of the longest surviving author plus 70 years - earliest possible PD date is 1/1/2048
    * Works registered before 1/1/1978 - 95 years from the date copyright was secured.
    * Works registered before 1/1/1923 - Copyright protection for 75 years has expired and these works are in the public domain.

    The Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act was signed into law on October 27, 1998. Prior to the Sonny Bono 20 year copyright term extension, copyright protection for works registered before 1/1/1978 was 75 years; therefore, compositions registered in 1922 or earlier entered the public domain on 1/1/1998. The 1998 copyright extension did not extend copyright protection from 75 to 95 years for songs already in the public domain so . . .

    * The Good News - works published in the United States in 1922 or earlier are in the public domain even if they are not yet 95 years old.
    * The Bad News - no new works will enter the public domain until January 1, 2019.

    You can confirm the above information about public domain and copyright protection in "Extension of Copyright Terms", Circular 15t, of the U.S. Copyright Office. Specifically the last paragraph of Page 3 states in part "Works published before January 1, 1923, have fallen into the public domain." We suggest that you print this circular and keep it as part of your public domain research materials.

    International Copyright Law
    The Berne Convention is an international treaty standardizing copyright protection since 1886. In 1994 a "General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT)" was signed by 117 countries, and the World Trade Organization (WTO) was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to enforce compliance with the agreement. GATT includes a section covering copyrights called the "Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property" (TRIPS) U.S. law was amended to be essentially consistent with GATT by the "Uruguay Round Agreements Act" (URAA) in 1994 and the "Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act" in 1998. Despite GATT, copyright protection varies greatly from country to country, and extreme caution must be exercised on all international usage of any intellectual property.
    Rule of Thumb for Public Domain Music

    * Works published in the United States with a copyright date of 1922 or earlier are in the public domain in the United States.
    * Copyright protection outside the USA is determined by the laws of the country where you wish to use a work. Copyright protection may be 95 years from publication date, 50 to 70 years after the death of the last surviving author, or other criteria depending on where the work was first published and how the work is to be used.


    Now, since SN was written in 1906, cyberhymnal site says it is Public Domain. But, remember, the day that it was written is not the date of copyright. And the copyright is with Oxford press....the term is longer than being based upon the composer's dates.

    It is copyright and will not be appearing in any PD hymnal.

    There is an organist friendly alternate to this tune.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Yes, I know there's another tune, but falls flat after Sine Nomine. I think it's in Hymns A&M AT least one is.
    Donna
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    Engelberg is like *faux* Sine Nomine.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    When it comes to text, I have a good grasp of all the copyright ins and outs, including the quirky things not mentioned in the online tutorials (such as what happens when the copyright notice was not posted in a book published before registration was automatic). but the hymns issue is far more complicated beyond anything I've seen. there seems to be lots of slippage here. When I see GIA slapping a blanket copyright notice on a collection of rounds that have been part of the commons for more than 200 years, you know that there is slippage. This is as close to being copyright fraud as anything I've seen; in fact, I would even suggest that it is exactly that. but the penalties for doing this are low and fixed in law, and they've obviously decided not to worry about it. Maybe that is a rational decision.

    It is extremely crucial that the CMAA be the institution that does a service to the entire world in making it very clear what is part of the commons, if we can clearly establish that it is. This only we do so much to end the madness going on out there. Just think what doing this for chant has done for the world of sacred music. It has has darn near sparked a revolution. We do the same for hymns, and we are going to start seeing serious changes.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    "faux" Sine?

    Sine breaks new ground, opening doors, Engleberg crowns the English Heroic hymns, almost putting a lid on the genre. Bach would have written Engleberg, Mozart Sine.

    Is it better to perfect an art or introduce a new facet?

    Sine has spawned nothing in its genre. A genre spawned Engleberg.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Those two hymn tunes are simply not comparable. Each is good in its own way. Why put them up against each other. I love both of them.

    Donna
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Anyway, I was thinking of a Hymntune from Hymns A&E by someone like Stanford or Parry or maybe Sullivan.

    Donna
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks Kathy and Donna. I found it. This is very useful with the verses of so many saints. Somehow we never sang this before in our parish.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    Yah, don't listen to me about tunes, seriously. I'm a words girl.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    Both tunes associated with By All Thy Saints are locked up in copyrights.

    Some verses are also copyright...in the two versions I found.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Under the hymn it says
    Tune: St. Theodulph,... Melchlor Teschner, 1584-1635. I really don't know how it works, but isn't this mean this is an old tune?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    St. Theodulph in the 1982 has the "alt" which means that it has been altered, which then makes it copyrightable.

    Worship has St. Theodulph without "alt" meaning that yours is in the public domain. The tunes in other hymnals are different and are copyright, so then it becomes a question of which tune is best, further complicated because Worship says the entire text is copyright in their version of the text, including all of the alternate verses.

    Comparing a sample of identical verses between the two versions, they are identical. So that means that both companies are claiming that their copy of text that is identical...with the other one....is actually unique.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    The one from RitualSong says

    Text: Based on Horatio Nelson, 1823-1913, by Jerry D Godwin.b.1944 Copyrighted 1985, The Church Pension Fund.

    Does this mean someone can change the text from 'Horatio Nelson' and use the tune without the 'alt'?
    By the way who is Horatio Nelson? I googled him, but the one shows up doesn't match the dates.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    This means that Jerry Godwin took the PD text from Nelson and made changes, many times for theoligical reasons or to abandon words no longer in common use, and then copyrighted it.

    So RS pays the Episcopal Church Pension Fund a fee for using this text. Normally they juist show "alt" with no sttribution, but they are being very clear here.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    Wow! The hymnwriting Horatio Nelson was the third earl, succeeding to the title held by his dad, which he inherited from his uncle, Nelson's brother. (Nelson being a dead hero by the time they gave out earldoms.)

    I can't even imagine that, being Nelson's great-nephew. Weird. Just as well he didn't want to be in the Navy.

    The original wording seems to be in "Hymns for Saints' Days and Other Hymns" by "A Layman". It was all about "Thy saints in warfare". So of course they changed it to "alt".... Here it is from an older hymnal on books.google.com, where the words aren't alt.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yWACAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT380&dq="salisbury+hymn+book"&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q="salisbury hymn book"&f=false
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    The navy Horatio Nelson lived from 1758 to 1805. But the hymnal says 1823-1913. Is this the same person?
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    No- see Maureen's explanation above, Mia.

    Donna
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Ok, I see it. ( I didn' t read it carefully.) Thanks Donna.
    I think In Adoremus hymnal the title has the word "Warfare," instead of "Striving."

    I should also add a word in my previous post

    "Does this mean someone ELSE can change the text from 'Horatio Nelson' and use the tune without the 'alt'?" (I was thinking maybe someone here could write a new text for the new hymnal?)
  • Maureen
    Posts: 678
    If something is in the public domain, it is fair game for altering and sharing, or even for copyrighting an altered version. So yes, certainly someone could write new text.

    Actually, though, I don't see anything particularly wrong with Nelson's "warfare" version.
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