CDC: "consider suspending use of a choir"
  • Geremia
    Posts: 269
    CDC's "Interim Guidance for Communities of Faith" (PDF p. 25):
    Avoid or consider suspending use of a choir or musical ensemble during religious services or other programming, if appropriate within the faith tradition. Consider having a soloist or strictly limiting the number of choir members and keep at least six feet between individuals.
    source: "Trump admin rejects CDC reopening guidelines over religious, economic, liberty concerns"
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,080
    The Thomistic Institute's recommendations were more pungent:

    "Choirs are discouraged, especially if seated together. Vigorous singing, especially in close proximity to others, may increase the risk of viral spread."

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/580e5b23579fb3fdc10ab03c/t/5eab382772d9460d3e375c76/1588279335659/Guidelines+for+Mass+(4.28.2020)
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Liam,

    Given the tendencies of Negro Spirituals and Gospel music to engage in "
    Vigorous singing, especially in close proximity to others


    how did this suggestion not get left on the cutting room floor?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,080
    Go ask the solons at the Thomistic Institute. For bonus points, get the opinion of Augsburg Fortress about what Lutheran PIPs should do.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    How many of our choristers really sing all that "vigorously," anyway?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 704
    At my age I'm lucky I can sing at all let alone vigorously :)
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    Some of my choristers are well past mid eighties. They have a nice sound, not a powerful sound.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    I guess us organists need to practice a little harder and Step up our game
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Perhaps anemic singing at a great distance is permitted or encouraged. (Where's Adam Wood when we need a good, biting punchline?)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,799
    If you have a good live acoustic you could all face the wall in the loft and it will reverberate off, but keeping together might be a little tricky
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    We could all just hum the tunes instead?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I have a kazoo if anyone is interested.
    Thanked by 3CatherineS Little_Durufle adjpanderson13
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Francis,

    I once helped a choir to improve its singing by having all the singers in a circle, facing away from each other. There wasn't a conductor, so they had to listen more carefully.
    Thanked by 2CatherineS francis
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Latest news headline: Local choir suggests suspending the use of the CDC.



    Not really. But it would be nice!
    Thanked by 5tomjaw CatherineS francis adjpanderson13 hilluminar
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    Local choir suggests suspending the use of the CDC, joins Dr. Birx in reviling same.


    Added context.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Drake
    Posts: 221
    Disclaimer: Side effects of vigorous singing may include hoarseness, dry throat, laryngitis, congregant satisfaction or dissatisfaction, harmonics, melodiousness, and COVID-19. Vigorous singing is not for everyone. Before engaging in vigorous choral activities, consult your doctor if your pianist is high-strung, your pipes are clogged, or you have high blood pressure or belong to a high-risk group.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I think you mean:

    Sideeffectsofvigoroussingingmayincludehoarsenessdrythroatlaryngitiscongregantsatisfaction
    ordissatisfactionharmonicsmelodiousnessandCOVID19VigoroussingingisnotforeveryoneBefore
    engaginginvigorouschoralactivitiesconsultyourdoctorifyourpianistishighstrungyourpipesare
    cloggedoryouhavehighbloodpressureorbelongtoahighriskgroup.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Carol tandrews
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    Don't you wish there was HTML for "very small type"??
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Carol
  • Drake
    Posts: 221
    @Salieri Exactly.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    Needs to be superimposed on a video of happy-looking 50-60-year-olds smiling at each other for best effect. That way you know it isn't a real rehearsal.
    Thanked by 4chonak Carol Drake adjpanderson13
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    " Don't you wish there was HTML for "very small type"?? "

    How about this?

    How about <font size=1>this?</font>


    Thanked by 4chonak tomjaw a_f_hawkins Carol
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    Sideeffectsofvigoroussingingmayincludehoarsenessdrythroatlaryngitiscongregantsatisfaction
    ordissatisfactionharmonicsmelodiousnessandCOVID19VigoroussingingisnotforeveryoneBefore
    engaginginvigorouschoralactivitiesconsultyourdoctorifyourpianistishighstrungyourpipesare
    cloggedoryouhavehighbloodpressureorbelongtoahighriskgroup.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    Now add the pic of the happy 60's couple on a picnic near their sailboat holding their AARP phone!!

  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Wait until the Big 3 get wind of this!
    Thanked by 1Drake
  • Drake
    Posts: 221
    As I scrolled through the discussion about font size and improving the disclaimer, I happened to see the following random reminder:

    Be grateful for improvements even if you wish they were bigger.


    :-)
    Thanked by 3irishtenor Carol CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Updated information..

    https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/29/865324310/cdc-quickly-changed-its-guidance-on-limiting-choirs-at-religious-services
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,792
    "The version that is currently up on the website is the version cleared by the White House."
    That's reassuring? My wife's Bishop is urging pastors to heed this paragraph from the California guidelines:
    Even with adherence to physical distancing, convening in a congregational setting of multiple different households to practice a personal faith carries a relatively higher risk for widespread transmission of the COVID-19 virus, and may result in increased rates of infection, hospitalization, and death, especially among more vulnerable populations. In particular, activities such as singing and group recitation negate the risk-reduction achieved through six feet of physical distancing.”
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Richard,

    That's just NPR-ese for "you shouldn't trust this because Orange Man Bad"
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CCooze dad29
  • Carol
    Posts: 856
    I don't really care either way, but if you read what happened, as recounted on the CDC website, I would call that anecdotal evidence. One person was confirmed with corona virus, a bunch of people became ill, but how many asymptomatic choristers were at that rehearsal or were already infected before they arrived at the rehearsal? We will never know.
    Thanked by 1Caleferink
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,792
    You don't have to inject yourself with disinfectant just because you've drunk the koolaid, Chris.
    Thanked by 1Schönbergian
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Richard,

    I don't like Orange koolaid. I won't serve it to my choir, if the opportunity ever arises.

    Maybe we should see if Stimson, or Charles W, has any idea what else to serve choirmembers in or around rehearsals (whether it reduces the infectious quality of the virus or merely of the humor of the rehearsal...?)

    Given what "guidance" the government has taken upon itself to give in recent decades, I'm inclined to take most of it with a pound or two of salt, especially where it comes to religious observance and singing. If the CDC and the White House happen to be playing in the same key, at the same tempo and at the same time.... this is an unusual even and noteworthy on those grounds. Imagine a choir director who gets all the tenors to sing in tune, and blend?

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I am just going to wait this one out. It is now summer when we cut our rehearsal schedule in half and music becomes a bit simpler. I really have no choice anyway since the diocese has mandated what we can and can't do. For those of more Anglican inclination, learn the Queen Elizabeth wave to everyone as you sail majestically past the chancery in your land yacht. Peace be still and to all a good night.
    Thanked by 3bhcordova Carol a_f_hawkins
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    In general, those who were skeptical of "experts" have been proven correct. Mask-off/Mask-on/Mask-off (the latest expert opinion, btw), projections which were outlandish, .....hard surfaces awful/hard surfaces no big deal, ....Second Wave (no longer held to be a concern).........one could go on.

    Bishops have been extremely weak defenders of the rights of the Church--if they've defended them at all--and are implementing guidelines which are outmoded by current understanding of the virus.

    THESE are the times which try men's souls, and those of women, too.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw francis Carol
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    In general, those who were skeptical of "experts" have been proven correct. Mask-off/Mask-on/Mask-off (the latest expert opinion, btw), projections which were outlandish

    What delusional comments. The United States has the most Covid-19 deaths of any country in the world. Vietnam is among the least. Why? They listened to, and continue to listen to, scientific and medical experts. They implemented these experts recommendations, including early social distancing and lockdowns. They wore and continue to wear masks because masks work. Period. To deny experts and facts on this is to deny life, and to do this is incompatible Catholic social and moral teaching. https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/asia/coronavirus-vietnam-intl-hnk/index.html

    What a sad little collection of brain washed, conspiracy minded, modern scientific and medical expert "deniers" many on this forum are. These reality deniers are a discredit to CMAA, to Catholicism and frankly to this country. The reason this country is suffering 19th/early 20th Century levels of death due to this virus is because so many, many people, including so many, many people on this forum, insist on keeping their heads buried in 19th/early 20th Century sand, if not ignorant medieval sand.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,770
    The United States has the most Covid-19 deaths of any country in the world.

    Is this statement true? and is this statement relevant? As for masks @Jpnz71 could you please tell me which scientists and experts are experts? because they have not given a clear message about masks, apart from that only proper biohazard equipment is effective to prevent the virus passing through it.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,792
    I very much hope people know better than to come here for trusted medical advise. Nevertheless, number of deaths is not at all close, even assuming Russia is reporting only about half, according to John Hopkins. They also have a current page on masks. Shifting thought is surveyed in this article.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    The CDC hasn't exactly been consistent and was slow getting started thanks to the usual internal bureaucratic bickering. Their recommendations have also undergone some changes over time. I think most are agreed on wearing masks. I will be wearing one later this morning when I play for masses. Masks don't bother me in the slightest. I still work part time for the federal agency from which I retired. You can't even get in the door if you are not wearing a mask.
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    Is this statement true? and is this statement relevant?

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality - Johns Hopkins
    Total cases: 1st - US, 1,770, 165; 2nd - UK, 274, 219
    Total deaths: 1st - US, 103, 775; 2nd - UK, 38, 458
    Deaths/100,000: 1st - Belgium, 82.76;...9th - US, 31.72;...Countries with lower rates include Mexico, Germany, Peru, Ecuador, Japan, Taiwan, Canada and over 100 more. Vietnam, with a population of 97 million, has had just 328 confirmed cases, and 0, that's z-e-r-o covid related deaths. https://nypost.com/2020/05/30/how-did-vietnam-manage-to-avoid-even-one-coronavirus-death/ - also - https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/29/asia/coronavirus-vietnam-intl-hnk/index.html

    More stats from other sites are readily available and I'd re-post them here now but its time for work.
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    As for masks @Jpnz71 could you please tell me which scientists and experts are experts?

    From the Mayo Clinic - "Can face masks help prevent the spread of the coronavirus that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus."
    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449
    Does anyone really want to argue with the consensus of experts at the Mayo Clinic?
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    and is this statement relevant?

    It is relevant because this country's abysmal failures related to covid-19 cases and mortality are in no small part do to the expert doubting, science doubting, medical doubting that begins at the top, and is then echoed and amplified by the conspiracy theorists and willfully ignorant throughout the country, including on this forum. If we had listened to the experts, the scientists, the doctors, had had heeded their warnings and followed their guidance from the earliest, we would not have over 100,000 dead, and we might be much closer to normalcy when it comes to Mass and choirs. So all of you who have been spreading conspiracies and casting doubt on experts, scientists and doctors, you own this.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,456
    But what do the reported statistics mean? I find this on the official website for London(UK).
    The total number of reported deaths in London hospitals of patients who tested positive for COVID-19 is now 5,947. The total number of deaths where COVID-19 mentioned on the death certificate is 170.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • jpnz71
    Posts: 65
    But what do the reported statistics mean?

    From Politico - “Finding anomalous data during extraordinary circumstances is not unsuspected,” said Dr. Jane Donovan, research director of Harvard University’s Shorenstein Institute, who studies misinformation. “It's just that right now we have a set of armchair epidemiologists who are looking for discrepancies everywhere and turning them into conspiracies.” - and - "An increasing number of conservatives are convinced the medical community and the media are inflating the coronavirus death toll for political purposes, despite nearly all evidence indicating that, if anything, the figure is an undercount...To health experts, it’s a disturbing trend that could lead to people not taking the government’s hygiene and social-distancing orders seriously, further exacerbating the coronavirus outbreak." - which is exactly what has happened and is happening, again, thanks to many of you conspiracy theorists, expert doubters and reality deniers on this forum. What do you gain from this? Are you especially proud to be on the side of those who have caused the needless deaths of over 100,000 people in this country? Do you not give two cents that these people died? Unbelievable.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/07/trump-death-toll-coronavirus-241819
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    I distinctly remember being told not to wear masks at one point because it would be "completely ineffective" at stopping the virus; now they're made out to be COVID's Kryptonite. Perhaps the data may have changed, but I can see how such a flip-flop would incite skepticism of the medical community in the general public.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    Some number of advices given to the public are given based on the likelihood of user error. That is, most people are incapable of following any advice correctly, so if you add more things to do it increases the chances something will work.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    because this country's abysmal failures related to covid-19 cases and mortality


    Well, YOU are still alive, so that's something.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,229
    because it would be "completely ineffective" at stopping the virus


    A virus is about 3 microns in diameter. The common paper mask will NOT stop anything smaller than ~70 microns. That means that a Chinese Cootie AND 24 of his best friends can scoot through your mask and ZAPPPP! You're dead!!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,456
    jpnz71 - I am by no means sceptical about the value of facts, and scientific knowledge. I quoted the London numbers to point out that we need a precise definition attached to each number cited. The Office for National Statistics publishes yet another number - deaths in which a medical professional has noted the presence of Covid-19. That includes deaths which never go to hospital and never receive a test (many in retirement homes), it is of course much higher than the other numbers I quoted.
    dad29 - but viral particles don't travel independently, they have to hitch a ride on gobs of spittle. Also they are not effective on their own, they have to be in numbers sufficient to overwhelm the body's defences. The purpose of a mask, or a minefield, is to blunt the enemy's attack.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Carol bdh
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    How accurate are the statistics? It is an accepted fact that some countries are notoriously bad at providing accurate numbers - assuming they don't deliberately falsify those numbers. In the U.S. statistics are often dependent on figures provided at the state level. Can we say every state reports as accurately as the others? Do we really know as much as we think we know? That's no conspiracy, just faulty statistics except where it is outright deception. Oh lawdy, you mean the good Chinese government would lie? Yes, that government along with others spins the truth routinely.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CatherineS
    Posts: 690
    This morning I had a video meetup with some people I had just started singing with before the quarantining started. After some time spent letting the stressed out among us de-compress, we sang the Veni Sancte Spiritus and the Veni Creator (taking verses in turns, since you can't really sing together online). I obliged them to end with a prayer. I'm really becoming a curmudgeon about some things, one being Catholics who only want to talk about politics and can't be bothered to pray together, even when the purpose of coming together is to sing the holy chant for this holy day. I didn't scold, which I am prone to do, but arm twisted them into joining me in an Ave Maria. Interesting: the most agitated person's video connection instantly cut out and she had to call back in.

  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,770
    Total deaths per country is a stupid measure, it needs to take into account the population size. The U.S. being honest gives a very liberal number of cases and with its large population is going to give a higher number.
    Deaths per 100,000 is also not a good measure, as it does not take into account the population density and age. Higher population density and an ageing population will give inflated figures.
    The only useful measure is excess deaths, but we will not have useful figures until the end of the year. Interestingly we have excess deaths in the U.K. far beyond the deaths with Covid, these people have been killed by the lockdown.
    Then as @a_f_hawkins states how many of these people that died having tested positive for Covid, actually died of something else?
    Oh and the good news this has only been a bad flu year for deaths, and if you are young and healthy in the U.K. you are more likely of dying from being struck be lightening. I see according to conservative numbers published by the CDC, 79,000 people die of the flu in a bad year in the U.S.
    How accurate are the statistics? It is an accepted fact that some countries are notoriously bad at providing accurate numbers - assuming they don't deliberately falsify those numbers.

    Thanks @CharlesW, could not have put it better myself! I saw one output from the statistics in the U.S. that linked Democrat voting states to have a higher death rate from Covid?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,792
    A virus is about 3 microns in diameter. The common paper mask will NOT stop anything smaller than ~70 microns.
    The misunderstanding here is that it is droplets rather than single viruses (which don't long survive exposure to air) that are the threat.
    Thanked by 2Carol BruceL
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