Passion St Mark + S. C. and Crowd question for Holy Week Tuesday Missa Cantata
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Okay so, Lay Female Organist/Choral Director here...
    I've been asked to sing a mass on Tuesday in Holy week at an unnamed educational institution. The propers I can manage easily, that looks actually really doable but then I realised the Gospel is a passion Gospel and I've only ever sung the "crowd" parts prenotated with the choir's parts specifically indicated.
    I found this http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/music/gregorian-chant/clergy/st-mark-passion.pdf
    which is awesome thank you to whoever from the CMAA helped put this up and God Bless you!!!

    BUT a small conundrum: as a lay female what am I actually allowed to sing? I don't believe I may sing any part except for the crowd bit. So does this mean that the priest sings both S. and C. parts until the crowd parts or do they just sing all of it? OR do they just sing the + bit and the server sings the S and C bits and then I sing the crowd parts? Or Does the priest sing the + bit the server the C bit and then I sing the S bit? I've only ever done the passion in OF where lay people of any gender seem to sing/say the other parts regardless of past tradition or in EF solemn mass where three priests sing the different parts and the choir comes in for the crowd.

  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Today we sang... http://www.uma.es/victoria/pdf/Pasion_San_Mateo.pdf

    Many years ago our schola including lay women sang the crowd parts to the plainchant melody... The + and C parts really should be sung by a Cleric... although it is common to have a layMAN singing the C part. EF of course...
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Clerics should sing all three, but sometimes that's impossible.
    A woman should never sing the part of Christ. (No, there's not a rubric that I'm aware of, just common sense.)

    The Passion's chant is constructed to change registers, not octaves.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Jes
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Thanks Yeah, I figured no brainer RE Christ's part.
    If only more men would just put their hand up really, I really hate being asked to do bloke things - I got asked if I wanted my feet washed by the local on Thursday... NO, don't touch my feet at all, thanks!
    I think I will try get the congregants to sing the crowd part with me, so it is actually a crowd.
    I'll ask our lay server guy if he can sing the C part. I thought all + C and S had to be clerics except for the crowd which can be anybody so that's useful to know guys, thanks!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Usually our Priest sings the + part and lectors sing the S and C, this year we had a different priest and he was convinced that a Deacon or priest sing the Passion...

    So he sang the + and C parts, which was great as we could then double up the voice parts for the Victoria...
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    Is this Mass EF or OF? The EF Passion is set for three solos voices, and that includes when the Narator mentions a group or crowd. Most of the current Lectionaries have both a Speaker part AND crowd parts.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    And, in the OF, despite missalette publishers to the contrary, the congregation is *not*supposed to partake of the the crowd parts, given the requirements in the 1988 circular letter which provides in relevant part: "The passion narrative occupies a special place. It should be sung or read in the traditional way, that is, by three persons who take the part of Christ, the narrator, and the people. The passion is proclaimed by deacons or priests, or by lay readers. In the latter case, the part of the Christ should be reserved to the priest."

    http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Calendar/Seasons/Documents/Paschale-Solemnitatis.pdf
    Thanked by 4Steve Collins CHGiffen BruceL Jes
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Perhaps that will take effect in the US someday when the next edition of the Lectionary is published. (Not holding my breath.)
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    So why do heaps of choirs do the crowd parts in polyphony if it is not permitted for more than three soloists to sing? That seems odd that people in the 1500-1600's would write crowd responses in polyphony if they weren't allowed to sing them... but in a Missa Cantata surely the situation is different to a solemn mass... hmmm
    I'm used to three priests one for Jesus, one for narrator, and one who reads Pilate and Caiphas etc. and then the choir sings polyphony for the crowd...
    Hmm
    And yeah talking EF not OF.
    I just asked the priest to read it himself and all was well.
    Thanks guys!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    Fortescue (1918) said (p.275-6), my emphasis -
    not sung by the deacon who assists the celebrant, but by three other deacons. Of these three deacons one sings all the narrative; he is called the Narrator. Another sings the words spoken by our Lord, and is called Christus. The third sings whatever is spoken by the crowd or by anyone else. He is generally called the Synagoga. In case of necessity the celebrant himself may sing the words of Christ; there are then but two deacons of the Passion. The choir may sing the words said by the crowd (the "Turba") ; but this does not dispense with the "Synagoga" deacon, though it reduces what he has to sing to very little. He will then take the part of Pilate, or of any other one person who speaks.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    That's my experience yes!!
    Both EF and OF had that experience. So... in EF if not obtained 3 deacons or men to sing can the priest sing all and the choir be turba? May a lay woman sing other parts, I'm quite happy not to, propers are enough. That's basically what I really am asking.
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