TLM/EF Chanted Ordinary - Organ or Not?
  • Hi, folks! To those who play at Traditional Latin Masses, I'm curious: Do you use the organ to accompany chanted Mass Ordinaries or not? Please state whether you are diocesan, FSSP, etc...

    I'll start:
    (FSSP) Usually not, unless it's a Mass VIII Gloria/Sanctus at a Wedding or if we use it on a Sunday, (not common).
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    When I have done EF Masses (Diocesan), it varies, depending on what Mass is being sung, and the abilities of the choir. Requiem or during Advent or Lent, no organ; at other times, maybe, maybe not. And when the organ can be used, I have been known to give the pitch to the cantors by playing a little fantasia -- even if the piece itself will be sung unaccompanied.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Do what works best for you, your singers, and your situation.
    Thanked by 1Steve Collins
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I sing in the schola at my diocesan parish, and the director rarely accompanies. Probably only once or twice a year, in unique situations, like a combined Mass for the EF and OF crowds. For the normal sunday EF, never.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Diocesan EF: I always accompany our chant Masses, even in Lent and Advent. I believe it helps give people the courage to sing along and helps people who are new to the Latin Mass have a sense of continuity with the accompanied ordinary in the OF.

    Before I started playing at our Latin Mass chapel, the congregation which was very small (about 25 people) sang the ordinary acapella, and they sang it very well, but they only knew 2 Mass settings. We now know all the settings in the Kyriale except Masses III, X and XII.
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  • I grew up with the sisters playing the organ with everything. While still in parochial grade school, we learned at least 5 of the Gregorian Masses. The class I was in learned the entire Requiem Mass in 5th and 6th grade. I think that the use of the organ - properly - will help the reintroduction of chant to parishes, while attempting the same with the strict prohibition of the organ is doomed to failure.

    I use the "Nova Organi Harmonia" most of the time, but I do have some others that I like for certain Ordinaries. "NOH" is the only source I use for the accompaniment of melismatic Propers. We also use Psalm tones and Anglican chant for some Propers.
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    FSSP parish - no organ accompaniment to the chant. I'm very glad to be on the same page as my pastor.
  • Diocesan. We generally use organ. Sometimes we haven't during Advent and Lent, but we always do for the Credo. It's a big church and a small Schola.
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    I was the director of the music program at www.windsorlatinmass.com for several (pre-SP) years. We accompanied the ordinary (when chant) and didn't accompany propers.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I very much like that combination: accompanied chanted ordinary and unaccompanied propers. Something for everybody.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    2 Diocesan locations: I'm not the organist.
    Yes at 1,
    No at the other.

    If we're stating a preference, mine would be unaccompanied Ordinary.
  • Clarifying comment:

    I'm just curious what others do. I'm not necessarily looking for advice/help, though I do value your thoughts. :)
  • I serve as music director at St. Anne Church in San Diego, FSSP.
    Accompanied Credo and often one other part of the ordinary. No accompanied propers, though sometimes we use a drone.
    My preference would be unaccompanied, as is our organist's preference, but our pastor wishes the situation to be flexible as the need arises. And some of the choirs need accompaniment sometimes. So I view it as a crutch when needed and I'm fine with that.
  • ...by playing a little fantasia...

    Brilliant, Salieri!
    I never ever give a pitch, a note, or plunk a chord - and worse (infinitely worse) than playing a chord is playing a broken, arpeggiated, chord. Nothing says 'we are musically daft' quite like any of the above. And! For those who actually hum their note after hearing the pitch, well, they are begging for serious excoriation. Train your choirs to think their pitches. Insist on it.

    Anyone can improvise a short praeambulum before a motet, a chant, or anything and end on the proper chord spelled out with the desired distribution of voices. If you can't improvise, then play some short intradas by Gabrielli or some such. Blurted notes and dumb chords are really an embarrassment and a senseless distraction from ritual.
    Such praeambula or intradas could be anywhere from a half dozen bars or more to just two or three. And they are so nice and smart.

    As for accompanying chant, a capella is the ideal which should be, eventually, the achieved goal everywhere that chant is sung. Steve does, though, have some useful perspective. If it is absolutely necessary in a given situation, it should be as quiet as possible, and should be systematically phased out. One might even try accompanying a given chant normally, after a few moments decrease the organ sound, after a few more moments cease the organ altogether. This might serve to give people confidence that they can sing a capella on chant - as they should.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CCooze
  • Our EFs are Archdiocesan (or Diocesan, depending on where you go, since there are several locations that are just on the border of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis and the Diocese of Lafayette-in-Indiana where you can go), and I've seen it done both ways. The usual EFs that I have sung for have used organ for everything except the Proper (those were Archdiocesan). I have attended some in the Diocese where everything was chanted, except for the processional and recessional (I played organ and sung in the schola for those Masses). Short answer is both, depending on where you go.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    To those who play at Traditional Latin Masses
    Is this supposed to be a dig at the Latin OF? We usually have fairly full organ to lend courage to the rear pews. But last Lent we silenced the organ altogether, without losing any singers.
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  • the Latin OF


    Is there a specimen of this rare animal about?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    Latin OF? Yes, said every weekday at the (restored) high altar of Westminster Cathedral (10:30), readings in English.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Train your choirs to think their pitches.


    Don't we all wish. I am certain some of my volunteer choir can't even hear their pitches. I have threatened to give them on the trumpet so they might hear them.

    As for accompanying chant, a capella is the ideal which should be, eventually, the achieved goal everywhere that chant is sung.


    I don't see it as an "ideal" and always accompany the Ordinary. All this is no more than personal preference and I am not aware of any holy writ from the Church specifying otherwise. It's wacky how some want to enshrine their preferences. The organ is a consecrated voice that speaks for the glory of God just like the singers. No more, no less. All come together to praise the All Holy.
    Thanked by 1Steve Collins
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    I don't see it as an "ideal" and always accompany the Ordinary. All this is no more than personal preference and I am not aware of any holy writ from the Church specifying otherwise.

    Charles, Pope St. Pius X did give instructions in Tra le sollecitudini regarding times when singing a cappela is required in the liturgy.

    12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ,...

    15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music,

    16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.

    http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html">
    http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html


    The human voice is superior to the organ and all other instruments because it is the only instrument that can, in itself, combine musical pitch with speech. It is the only instrument we have that is made by God. The organ and all other man-made instruments are there to assist it. They can't replace the human voice.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Spoken like a singer. LOL. Pius X is dead, and the rites of the Church have changed. Much of what he said isn't feasible for the new rite. In fact, much of what he said was based on the flawed scholarship of his time. The organ has been used for Catholic worship for what, a thousand years now? The human voice superior? Again, personal preference. I would make them more equal, giving a slight edge to speech, but that is my preference. It all works together, as I indicated above, for the glory of God. Individual musicians have to determine what works best in their unique situations and accomplishes that purpose best.

    Keep in mind I am in an exclusive OF situation. I would worry about what is correct for the EF if I had anything to do with that mass. But I don't.

    My point in all this, is to discourage the "chant police" who hold that all has to be done one way, only. Every place is unique, and accommodations often have to be made. No one should feel guilty or wrong for doing so.
    Thanked by 1Steve Collins
  • Spoken like a singer. LOL. Pius X is dead, and the rites of the Church have changed. Much of what he said isn't feasible for the new rite. In fact, much of what he said was based on the flawed scholarship of his time.


    [I can't compose a thoughtful, measured response to this nonsense, so I'll just back out politely, until I can.]
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Oh, now you can resurrect him? A great pope and saint, but a product of his time. I think much of what he proposed was what he wished for, since it was never realized in practice in the Latin Rite.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Charles, it is highly unlikely that there was a Casavant in the catacombs, and it is very likely that St Pius X was harkening back to (unwritten) tradition, not making up new rules.

    As to the original question, with two Diocesan EF choirs and now two Diocesan OF groups, the Chant was never accompanied. Don't need it. At another Diocesan OF parish where I was a choir member, the seasonal Marian antiphon always followed the dismissal, unaccompanied, and the choir and PIPs sang it very well.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    That's good. However, every choir is not the same, and what one can do is no indication of what another can do. As I indicated, a little trust in the musicians to make the best determinations for their situations is in order.

    Casavant? No, they had Ruffatti - they were Italian. ;-)
  • I have been to a number of Masses wherein Gregorian Propers were done. The majority of the time, the more difficult Propers - Gradual and Offertory - were simply not as solid as those with just a bit of organ as foundation. I have not been to any monastery where they chant around the clock daily, but in parish situations it seems even good groups have slips and difficulty holding the pitch. In the end, it would have sounded so much better with NOH accompaniment on just an 8' Flute with the Swell box closed.

    As I have stated before, yes, chant began as purely vocal. But the organ was brought into the western Church for the purpose of accompanying vocal singing. It was not introduced and spread all over just so organists could play loud Roman circus music as preludes and postludes.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW a_f_hawkins
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    WHat about French circus music?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    It was not introduced and spread all over just so organists could play loud Roman circus music as preludes and postludes.


    Illustrating why the organ was never used in the east. It never lost the circus/chariot races association. All that disappeared in the west with the fall of Rome. By the time the organ was introduced in western liturgy, those secular uses had been gone for hundreds of years.

    I think there is great danger in proposing that what was heard in church in the nineteenth century was identical to what was heard in the eighth century or even earlier. We don't know how chant sounded and who knows if we are even reading and interpreting the earliest manuscripts correctly. I have seen enormous changes in five-year periods. It is shaky ground indeed to propose there were no changes over centuries.
  • It seems to me that an essential aspect of the question at hand is to distinguish between what is the likely and unassailably correct adademic and genre-specific nature of chant, and the equally unassailable logic of those who will, regardless, perform it however they wish and prefer, and will offer as their authority the vicissitudes of changing norms throughout history.

    If our paradigm for chant is rooted in chant's natal eras, the following Carolingian develpments, and somewhat further into the mediaeval era, we can preach that chant is undeniably a vocal, monophonic, melodic idiom to which any 'accompaniment' is foreign and would ineluctably alter the very nature of the chant.

    Going a little further into the mediaval era we may want to insist that 'times change' and that chant was accompanied by bells, vielles, organs, harps, and whatnot in the later middle ages, and, therefore (not a non-convincing non sequitur) it's alright to accompany it now with whatever I wish to accompany it with (especially so-and-so's accompaniments, which I really really like).

    Proceeding into the renaissance, we find that chant was altered rhythmically, the melodies altered and abridged, therefore (again, not necessarily a sequitur) it's alright to perform it according to my own twist.

    A little further on the route to modern times we note that chant was accompanied by serpents and other things, that sharps and flats were inserted to mask the modal character and make the chant more 'modern', therefore (another non sequitur) it's alright to accompany chant with the organ arrangements that I really love to play, plus, I just like the way it sounds so don't bother me with the facts.

    In short, there may be, and likely is, a valid paradigm to be found in how chant was probably performed in its nascent periods. For some of us this represents a timeless example of what chant, in its objective essence, is. For others, it's a 'so what'.

    For others, this cramps their style and their preferences. They will, like the late mediaevals, the baroque modernists, and the modern practicalists, perform it the way they wish. There are no academic principles here. They will accompany their chant because they like it that way, and accompanying it with their favoured accompaniment is a pleasurable experience to them. Whether doing so is objectively 'correct' or not is not a relevant matter. They like it. Further, one needs to be cautious about entering that word 'correct' into play. No one, of course, wishes not to be 'correct', so there becomes an immediately perceived need to qualify what is said to be correct, or to abolish altogether the concept that a 'correct' paradigm in light of which all else is a departure of questionable validity even exists. Of course, we will graciously admit that these 'departures' exhibit their own self-referential validity, but that is not enough. The Paradigm must at all costs be utterly discredited. After all, who were these Frankish scholars? What could a fourth century cantor know about chant? Surely they aren't to be taken seriously in this day and time. A paradigm cannot be allowed, for it, by its very nature, is like a ray of light that puts all else in the shade. We mustn't have that.

    So, we have true chant. Then we have some things that we do to it. We have serpentine chant, We have accompanied chant. We have French plein-chant musical, we have Medicean chant, we have a variety of historical and dated 'methods', and so forth. Any given person will, ultimately do it according to one of the above, or his own genie. Any notion of one correct (or likely correct) manner is of no interest and will be shot down with this and that relativistic argument. Indeed, like every good relativist, they will insist that there is, nor can be, any verifiable objective paradigm.

    ________________________________________________________

    It sometimes seems that those (and, this is not an attack on them or their preferences - just a neutral observation) who are enthusiastic apologists for accompanied chant really cannot conceive of unaccompanied chant as anything other than missing something that they listen for and enjoy playing more than the chant itself. It is the relationship of this or that accompaniment to the chant that fascinates. If it is absent, well, there's nothing there but plain old chant - which needs to have an interesting accompaniment. There seems to be sort of a chant sub-culture in which the accompaniments of this or that person are weighed in relationship to one another, or prized because they exhibit a style which derives from particular idioms, say Debussy, etc. I have seen examples of this, a genre which is quite excitingly conversed about by accompanied-chant afficianados. (I'm really not judging or belittling - but it seems to me that, questions of paradigmatical origins aside, with some, the accompaniment is the thrilling aspect.)

    One hears the defensive mantra that 'well, if you do it right ('right' naturally being the way they do it) it doesn't distract from the chant, it only keeps people on pitch and you don't really notice it etc., etc.'. Well, of course 'you' do notice it, which is the whole point. You can't not notice it. It's there to be noticed, else there would be no need, real or perceived, for it to be there. Something foreign is being added to the chant, something which the chanters inevitably follow, something which by its very nature destroys the chant's native spontaneous rhythmic vitality. An harmonic structure is being imposed upon it which changes its character, performance, and flow - which makes it 'not exactly chant'.

    But, one cannot but say that this is no worse than what Palestrina did to chant. No worse than serpent-accompanied chant. No worse than what Mme Ward did to chant. It's not worse than any of these. It represents another spectrum of chant performance as it has unfolded through history. But. (Again, but!) All of them are shadows and treatments and mistreatments of the pure vocal rather oriental incantations of the early highly skilled cantors. And, no, CharlesW - like it or not, this is not all naught but speculation. This paradigm hasn't shifted. It has only been rediscovered.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    matthewj:
    I was the director of the music program at www.windsorlatinmass.com for several (pre-SP) years. We accompanied the ordinary (when chant)


    Here is a picture I found of matthewj accompanying the Ordinary extraordinarily.

    image
    600 x 751 - 80K
    Thanked by 2Ben CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    For others, this cramps their style and their preferences. They will, like the late mediaevals, the baroque modernists, and the modern practicalists, perform it the way they wish. There are no academic principals here


    You are quite correct. There are no academic principles (hopefully, not principals) here. It is all speculation.

    Indeed, like every good relativist, they will insist that there is no verifiable objective paradigm.


    That paradigm has shifted more often than a politician running for office. LOL.

  • Is this supposed to be a dig at the Latin OF?


    Um...No. That's just not my situation at present. I am the choir director/organist at the FSSP church in Minneapolis. I was curious what other people out there were doing in similar positions.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    I have been to a Latin OF this summer in The Hague, NL, and they did it the same way I am accustomed to from a diocesan TLM: Propers unaccompanied, Ordinary accompanied by organ.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • I have sung and taught chant for decades in numerous situations and with a variety of talents. Never. Not once, not anywhere, did I use organ or anything else for so much as to give a pitch. This has included choirs. It has included one, two, or three or four persons. Scholas of eight or ten, fifteen or twenty persons. Choirs of forty or more. Congregations of fifty to several hundred. Never did I need or even think of using an organ, and consistently did I enjoy confident and heartfelt singing as a result of my direction and tutelage. If people 'need' for their chant to be accompanied it is because they have been conditioned to 'need' it, because it was used to teach them and they became dependent on the crutch, or because 'someone' told them that they couldn't sing without an organ and they, being obedient Catholics, believed it. If anyone accompanies chant just because he or she likes it that way, that is fine, though regrettable. But don't blame it on the choir, the schola or the people. It is essential that chant be taught by someone who can sing it convincingly. Lacking an illustrative voice, no instrument will remedy such a fatal flaw. If one cannot sing chant authoritatively he is not competent to teach it. The only thing communicated by an instrument is pitches - and the pitches are not the chant, only its partial and relatively unimportant components.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    MJO is correct about training/singing Chant without organ. I'm not quite as pure as he is: I'll use the organ for giving a pitch (usually an open 4th or 5th with do at the bottom) or for demonstrating a difficult passage.

    Choirs live up to expectations.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I use organ with no apologies. It complements the voices and simply sounds better. Unaccompanied music can grate on the ears when there is nothing else. Personal preference here.
    Thanked by 1Steve Collins
  • Unaccompanied music can grate on the ears when there is nothing else.


    One must not lose the sense of irony, for our Orthodox brother speaks ill of unaccompanied music "when there is nothing else".
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    There is no comparison between the various national types of Orthodox music, and music of the western middle ages. Every nationality of Orthodoxy has its own unique music. The western music from those earlier times tends to start sounding alike. A good reason to "break it up" and use western music from different time periods.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    Russian Orthodox church music, as I hear it, is polyphonic and characterized by a strong base component, unlike Gregorian which is monophonic and, in the "good old days" was often pitched at the top of the singers register, at least in my experience. Unaccompanied Gregorian from the congregation can certainly grate
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Unaccompanied Gregorian from the congregation can certainly grate


    Yes! I, for example, like Palestrina. But I don't want to hear him every week. Use some of the other 500 years of good music you have to draw on.
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    I, for example, like Palestrina. But I don't want to hear him every week.

    That's why God gave us Byrd and Victoria! I don't blame you one bit for using the organ to accompany your singers. But, it doesn't change the fact that the Church prefers a capella singing. That said, if the singing would be worse without the organ than with it, use it by all means!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    If the church preferred we not use organ, it would have said so. It has said the opposite time and time again. I am willing to leave all that to the good judgement of the choir director and organist to determine what works best in a given situation.

    Music did not end with Byrd or Victoria. Eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth century composers wrote some great music, also. Some of the folks writing now are also doing some good stuff.
    Thanked by 1Steve Collins
  • ...compliments the voices and simply sounds better.

    Unaccompanied music can grate on the ears...

    Really, Charles -
    Boldly spoken but subjective assertions.
    Pure speculation!
    This paradigm shifts as the sands of the Sahara.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    And the Sahara was not always a desert, you know. ;-) I once attended a concert by a rather famous acapella choir that had performed in Europe, among other places. I was ready to leave by intermission, bored to death. It grated on my ears, and I was ready to hear something instrumental. Almost as bad as the concert I attended by the famous choir that did nothing but Sowerby. Too much of a good thing, is not always good. It is about balance in everything.
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  • Ah, Sowerby!
    I suppose that it seems de rigeuer for any Episcopalian (current or ex-) to be enthralled with his music.
    However -
    I've never really been a fan of his.
    Many there are, though, and ardent, too!
    Of course, as you say, this is all speculative and, at any rate, highly subjective.

    (Speaking of speculative, on which you are an authority, there are those who would assert that we, ourselves and all the universe, are speculative and may not exist actually at all. But, of course, that is pure speculation on their part.)
  • I'm sorry, but I'm also one who really doesn't like unaccompanied music either. Yes, Plestrina, Byrd, et all, can sound wonderful, but they can just as easily crash and burn - in the midst of Mass! So can the more complex chants. And it still seems to be only teachers, performers, and lovers of Gregorian in North America that have this strict view of chant and the organ. The Europeans don't seem to have any problems with it.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    But you have mass, correct? A sign of existence. Are you representative of those who do exist, or speculatively exist? Can I speculate on your mass without implying weight? Inquiring minds want to know!

    I don't speculate, simply state what I am doing. Those who do otherwise are free to do so with my compliments. But just because they do it, doesn't mean I have to.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The Europeans don't seem to have any problems with it.


    Precisely! Must be an American puritanical interpretation of Vatican documents. ;-) I enjoy the interplay of instruments and voices, the differing textures, and harmonic resolutions. When I listen to very early music, it seems something is missing and the harmonies and textures are primitive and undeveloped. And...it can seem to all sound alike, as some of my folks tell me. I suppose if you never heard anything written after the 16th century, you might find it daring, provocative, and wildly interesting. I have heard too much written since then to have those 16th-century ears.
  • Steve is certainly right about the Europeans! Yes, indeed! They accompany chant at Notre Dame, Paris, with full organ plenum, reeds and all. It's quite a noise. Nothing there to learn from or emulate. There is much about which the Europeans (disappointingly) are poor examples. This is one of them.

    There is chant.
    And then there are things people do with or to chant.
    I don't belittle them for what they do.
    They have Palestrina himself and the serpentists as exemplars.
    I do object that they carry on as though what they do is ideal and paradigmatic.
    No, it isn't.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    There is a difference between accompaniment and blasting everyone. I played for some years before ever attempting to work in a church. I found accompanying is not the same thing as playing - and it was hard to learn.

    Notre Dame? They probably needed full organ to be heard in that space.
    Thanked by 1Steve Collins
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Having had the experience of working for a native Frenchman priest, it is true that they have some very odd ideas of praxis. Not only "odd," but AT odds with Roman directives. They do love them some organ noise.