French Muslims at Mass (Sun 31 Jul 2016)
  • Good for them!
    May Good be unto them!
    Thanked by 2JL Casavant Organist
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    Years ago, I invited a couple Muslim co-workers of mine who were from Jordan to come to the Traditional Latin Mass where I was singing. They accepted the invitation and heard Byrd's Mass for 3 voices, the chanted Propers, and some motets. I don't know entirely what they thought of it all. Still, I think it was worthwhile to invite them. There's a need to try to convert Muslims to the Catholic Faith.

    What should we make of this call from this Islamic group to attend Mass in a show of solidarity? My skeptical side wants to shout “TAQIYYA!" On the other hand, this is an opportunity (perhaps a once in a lifetime opportunity) for some people to come to Mass and encounter Jesus in the Eucharist. I pray all goes well.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,076
    The Mass gives grace of itself. Pray for them!
    Thanked by 2JulieColl CHGiffen
  • I cannot but think of this as a miraculous outpouring of compassion and solidarity.
    Let us hope that it is appreciated for what it is, without any judgmental reservations.
    As if this were not enough, I have read that the Muslim authorities are refusing to bury the monster who committed this crime.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    I wonder how the welcome would be if the opposite happened? Christians, or secular folk, attending mosque services en masse? Maybe it depends on how well publicized the event was...
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    I'd be tempted to go into full-on Francis of Assisi mode if I went into a mosque.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    You'd start talking to animals?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Partes vulpium erunt, Mr. Kubisz.
    Thanked by 1gregp
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    JulieColl, I read the article. I have never understood how Islam is an Abrahamic religion. It has no links to Abraham. It was a made-up religion based on one man's fantasies and a supposed angel visitation. It originated during a time when anti-trinitarian heresies were rampant in the east, and it is clear they influenced Islam. People will believe anything.
  • Mohammed can't even tell the difference between the Blessed Virgin and Moses's sister.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW tomjaw
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Don't Muslims believe they are descendants of Ishmael, Hagar and Abraham's son? I think that may be the connection.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,965
    Yeah, but the connection is flimsy, unheard of until Muhammad's time. The claims extends to all Arabs. Nostra aetatae basically rejects the claim, but the council fathers acknowledge that such a claim is made.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW eft94530
  • I have even encountered opinions (educated ones) that Mohammed was actually more than one person, like Moses, and Homer, and some others are posited to have been. Some are now suggesting that David didn't exist at all.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    encountered opinions (educated ones)
    Hmmm
    Truly educated people will admit that we can sometimes see further because we are standing on the shoulders of giants.
    Sadly in our times many of the seemingly educated think they can see further because they are 'enlightened'. In most cases they are mistaken.
  • I didn't say that I was in their camp, or, that they were (necessarily) correct.
    Another candidate for being more than one person is Isaiah.

    Spot on are you, though, about 'most cases' of 'enlightenment' being mistaken.
    In fact, it occurs to me that one who claimed to be enlightened would be in the same delusional category as one who claimed to be wise. Anyone who really was would never, ever, say so - others might make note of it, but it would never occur to him think it of himself (or herself).
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Elmar CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    MJO I would not, and did not assume that you were in their camp. I am always suspicious of these modern theories, and think it important to point out the possible error at the root of the theory.

    I too think the difference between 'enlightenment' and 'wisdom' is rather interesting, and could be loosely defined as,
    Wisdom: An understanding and appreciation of the past and / or Tradition).
    Enlightenment: A misunderstand and lack of appreciation of the past.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    I am always suspicious of these modern theories, and think it important to point out the possible error at the root of the theory.

    Any modern theory (that genually claims to be a theory in the scientific meaning of the word) explicitly states the basis on which its starting points are considered to be true - or not. Scientists do not always seem to be aware of this background - less so when they popularize their results ...
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    N.B. I was an Organic Synthetic Chemist... We had to prove what we said in the laboratory, sadly certain other scientists, and certain non-scientists! cannot prove their theories to be true, but still talk as if they have been proved to be true.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    I just read an article on Rorate Caeli. They seem to have some very definite opinions on this. An interesting read.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I just read it, too, and found the advice of Arbp. Bernardini very compelling. It's funny that you mention being a chemist, tomjaw. I imagine there are strict protocols about what compounds you can safely mix and what you can't without risk of explosion or death. It's also true in a doctrinal and moral sense: I don't think you can just toss different theological opinions, religions and strains of moral belief into the blender, and by "making chaos of the Faith" will somehow end up with a nice fluffy homogenized product. It's far more likely you will end up with a Molotov cocktail.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    So true JC (JulieColl, not the other JC). It seems even the top tier of the church is infected with relativism. I don't have a solution for it.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I don't either; relativism is a very attractive proposition on the surface. Wish it were all that easy, but it ain't.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @ JuliColl

    compounds you can safely mix


    Fuels and Oxidising agents... can be rather exciting! or course nerve agents, poisons etc. can also be easily made.

    As for ideas they can also be very dangerous in the wrong hands.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • ...dangerous in the wrong hands.

    Knowing how to write (what is supposed to be) music certainly is!
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    There's a movement trending now in France called #DefendTonsEglise. Some beautiful pictures of churches if you scroll down.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    BTW, a very moving image of the martyred L'abbe Jacques Hamel here.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    In reading the First Things article, I could not help but remember John Paul II visiting France. He said something to the French along the lines of, what have you done with your baptism?
  • The glory of France is identified with the Catholic religion. Her power, greatness, renown, art, civilization, chivalry, glorious deeds, recollections, — all that is a spell upon the heart of the Frenchman, and makes him proud to belong to France, to call himself her son, — is redolent of Catholicity, inseparable from Catholic faith and piety. Divest France of what she owes to Catholicity, and she is a byword and a mockery.

    -- Orestes Brownson, 1847

    You can read the full quote here. It's truly prophetic.
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    Well, don't forget all the stuff that happened during the Reign of Terror. France has a long acquaintanceship with anti-Church sentiment.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Read Brownson's full quote. He addresses that.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Tragic story about priest protesting the demolition of his church being dragged from his church in France by riot police. From what I can tell, the police broke through the barricades as Communion was being distributed. It's amazing to hear the people singing hymns as the police shout and pound on the doors.

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/03/shocking-pictures-riot-police-evict-priest-mayor-gothic-church-demolished-carpark-apartments/
  • WGS
    Posts: 297
    If this is the instance I have read about - Keep in mind that it was not a Roman Catholic priest who was so rudely dispatched. It was a Gallican Catholic priest, the leader of a congregation of squatters. As I understand the French arrangement, at least the major churches all belong to the French government.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,965
    Not true!!! The Gallicans left in 2015, and the Institut du Bon Pasteur was using the church. It appears the community tried to buy the church, as that was one, necessary, and two, buying churches is the charism of the founders, who did it at least once while members of the SSPX, but they needed more time.

    As far as I understand it, the churches built before the concordat of 1905 & the wicked, destructive law of laïcité are owned by the state, which is a bad arrangement but also has benefits: most high altars remained.
    Thanked by 2CCooze JulieColl
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Yes, I also read that it was an SSPX priest and congregation, and simply that the Gallicans had it previously.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Just fascinating. I noticed that the priest in the video was wearing traditional vestments and at one point the people were singing O Salutaris Hostia, if I'm not mistaken.

    The priest's name is L'abbe Jean-Francois Billot. He is the secretary of the Superior General of the Institut du Bon-Pasteur, from what I can tell from a Google search.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,965
    It was IBP, not SSPX.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    There were 2 priests there, but that's not the one I read was celebrating Mass.

    http://www.onepeterfive.com/parisian-riot-police-drag-catholic-priest-from-the-altar/

    (Ah, I saw SSPX and IBP, but I see now.)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The details in the Breitbart article are slightly different from the IP5 article.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,965
    I think 1P5 got it right, based on photos of the priest while he was turned to the altar & photos elsewhere on the Internet, plus the network of very knowledgable traddies. (I was tweeting with the author for quite a bit.)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    It's a very sad situation, and the exact details are not clear yet, but what gives me pause is the involvement of the Institut du Bon-Pasteur, the presence of the mayor and other elected village officials who were resisting the demolition, and the fact that the LePen's are obviously in sympathy. All of the above lends a certain measure of respectability to the resistance, at least in my mind, but I freely admit a bias in favor of French traditionalists.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    but I freely admit a bias in favor of French traditionalists.


    NO!!! I never would have known that - LOL.

    I kind of like them, too. I wouldn't mind seeing them take their country back to its Catholic roots.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    This was a doomed effort. From what I read on the French news sites, the Gallicans probably had no way to fight this: they were renters. When the Gallican clergy left in March 2015, they cleared out their religious furnishings before the end of the month, and the squatters were mad at them for yielding. (Maybe church squatters get their way in France sometimes, but here in Boston we've seen a lot of that, and it generally doesn't work.) The IBP priests were trying to help the congregation out and maybe reconcile them with the Catholic Church.

    If I understand the coverage in the French press, the building had belonged (early 20th c.) to some part of the "Irvingite" sect, the "Catholic Apostolic Church".

    That denomination is a curious historical case, in which a group of pentecostal-type Protestant enthusiasts in Britain in the 1700s decided to call themselves apostles and built a reconstruction of the Catholic Church, with a hierarchy and liturgy and sacraments, and expected the return of Christ soon. Well, it didn't happen, and the 'apostles' decided around 1900 to put the denomination out of existence by not consecrating any more bishops: its last "priest" died in 1971.

    The property was being held by some board of trustees. It wasn't an architectural treasure, and the owner organization sold it to a developer who filed papers to build an eight-floor apartment block there. So the talk about putting just a parking lot there sounds like inflammatory spin.

    There was a lot of local sentiment about the place, largely from animal lovers who remembered the Gallicans' annual Mass at which there was a blessing of animals, and the animals were even brought into the church. I wonder whether the IBP would have kept that practice up.

    At the end, it was nasty of the police to interrupt a Mass -- if that is what happened: I've seen differing accounts in various articles.
    Thanked by 3JulieColl WGS eft94530
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    It looks, to me, as though there was a Mass being celebrated at the time it happened. Maybe one last Mass before the church was knocked down?

    Were all there participating in/there for Mass? Unlikely, considering that video starts out outside and comes in to catch what's about to happen.