A church musician pushed too far. Assumption Grotto
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/bishop-plays-ukulele-at-confirmation-mass

    I've been there. I've SO been there. I don't know what I would have done, but it might have looked something like this.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    At our E.F. when a visiting preacher started to sing some song during the Sermon a quarter of the congregation stood up and walked out... The cold stares from those remaining, soon brought an end the the childishness. No Organ needed!
  • This 'bishop', like countless of his confreres in holy orders, really has nothing to say, so he tries to entertain. He is, it would seem, not up to or comfortable with the profound gravity of the awesome rites of which he is made the guardian and celebrant - so he must entertain. He must entertain people of whom he obviously doesn't think much.
    The Church seems to be filled with such men, whether they are bishops, even cardinals, or mere priests, deacons, musicians, or other. Such persons can only be raised to such positions in an entity in which blatant authority outweighs spiritual perception and profound reverence, not to mention liturgical awareness and decorum, even common respect and love, and, much less, intellectual maturity and integrity, in appointments. What other explanation is there? It is obvious that spiritual gifts and sensitivity are not high on the list of requirements for those ordained and put in positions of authority - who, when they are in positions of authority, proceed to impose things which are contrary to what the Church has given them authority to fulfill. Just being in a position of authority does not ipso facto make all of one's acts authoritative. This latter quality persists only when the exercise of authority enables, administers, and is consistent with that for which authority was given. Is it asking too much of our Church to give us always authorities who are in fact authoritative in their ministrations? Who are believably an alter Christi? Is it not joyfully, even tearfully, refreshing when we happen to encounter (once in quite a while) one of those many who are?
  • Spriggo
    Posts: 122
    The Bishop did Confirmations at our place and did the same thing. I wasn't amused, and thought it was cringe-worthy, but I never would have done what the organist did. No more appropriate and more disrespectful than the uke-picking. YMMV
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • I share Spriggo's reservations about the wisdom of drowning out this, or any, crooning excellency. I suspect, though, that this organist knew his people and his pastor very well, and judged that he was expressing what all were thinking about such cringe-worthy antics, and that he was undoubtedly acting on their behalf and at their pleasure. Such immature silliness is absolutely out of place in church by anyone of whatever rank. Judging from the views of the congregation, they were of one mind with their organist in repudiating this insult to their intelligence. It's high time!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    he eventually stopped, drily remarking, "Only at Grotto do you get that sort of accompaniment. Thank you very much."


    He clearly thought it was all about him; this statement supports that thought. I think also the quote is perhaps mistaken, because I heard the following:

    "Only at Grotto can I get that sort of accompaniment."
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I sometimes think it goes back to dear old Newton and his actions and reactions, in that there is no longer much of a connection between the two. The church is now a business, for the most part. It is about money and how to get more of it. Consequently, the liturgy is just another "entertainment" to keep the donors happy.

    At one point, bishops and priests considered themselves guardians and inheritors of a sacred tradition which occupied first place. Now, it too often is all about "me." The MBAs in the chanceries not surprisingly operate with business rather than spiritual objectives in mind.

    About those entertainers. I have concluded most of the ordained who consider themselves comedians would starve if they had to do comedy for a living. I hate to say it, but it seems to me the priests in the old days were often the best educated people in the parishes. I don't find that always true today.

    Consequently, we have fools who are not worthy of their offices clowning around and carrying on in sacred places. This extends to the top of the church. These leaders seem confused about what it means to be Catholic. We have had a very costly sex abuse crisis because some of the bishops insisted on ordaining the mentally ill - action resulting in reaction. Not surprising. We have no tradition because the leaders don't guard and protect it anymore. Cutting up and clowning around only serve to convince me the clowns are not serious about what they do. Action and expected result, again. Nothing demonstrates our inadequate leadership more than the "bishop" in the op. Why hasn't this idiot been removed from office?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Your dog may have fleas. Our God doesn't.

    (Coincidentally, I had a chance to visit the Grotto on a trip to Detroit a few weeks ago, and was pleased to find that they do indeed have "surprise" sung masses during the week. Warmed the cockles of my heart.)
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    "The church is now a business . . . "

    Not just now. It was even MORE of a business when it was a significant landowner, landlord (and huge rent-and-tithe collector) and sovereign ruler of church-states. For many centuries.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The more things change...
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    What would have been going through my mind:
    'What is he going to do next? No...I can't believe it. The uke? Really? The UKE? Here? That is not going to fly here. That's it, I've had it. No more. Enough. We've fought against this, we've been vilified and beaten up for following the norms, and now, right in our own parish... No. Just no. This needs to stop.'

    It is clear that the standard means of redress for liturgical narcissism is not working. This bishop is one of the men to whom concerns about liturgical abuse are supposed to be addressed and what is he doing? Making a mockery of the Liturgy - at the Grotto of all places. One wonders whether it was calculated.

    As to whether the organist was right to confront him in this public way, as far as I'm concerned, the jury is out. We're always told to stay calm, talk to the perpetrator, talk to the bishop, talk to the archbishop. Talk, talk, talk...and still we get this, again and again and again for fifty years. The frustration is palpable.

    I think a bishop deserves respect - when he is a respectable man. Many of our bishops have acted in ways that forfeit the respect the office commands.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    It may have been more of a business, but the prelates at least respected the liturgy, and people revolted when they didn’t, like when Zaragossa experimented with the Quiñones Tenebrae. Parishes, especially in Germany, were another story, though Duffy has shown that for whatever faults in training had by English clerics, even parishes celebrated the liturgy well. Fr. Montgomery-Wright would have been just as much at home in 1489 as 1989.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Sidestepping the rightness or wrongness of either party.....the bishop has a really nice voice. But that organist, picking right up on the exact note with that magnificent accompaniment, that was awesome to this musical pretender.
  • The Bishop did Confirmations at our place and did the same thing. I wasn't amused, and thought it was cringe-worthy, but I never would have done what the organist did. No more appropriate and more disrespectful than the uke-picking. YMMV


    Two wrongs don't make a right. The organist owes the bishop an apology. This isn't a difficult call.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo PaxMelodious
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Well, argument could be made he was trying to accompany him. If he really wanted to drown him out, he could've played the Toccata from Widor's Fifth Symphony.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Your dog may have fleas. Our God doesn't.
    Very clever.
    I pray this won't be taken wrongly, but incessant ejaculations emanating from Rome seem intended to indoctrinate all things Catholic in this "franciscan era" with the presumption that our awesome God does, in fact, have awesome fleas. I'm surprised that the façade of San Pietro didn't feature a projected image of the buggers when "they" saluted ecology over theology.
    Jani, a caveat: do you think the auxiliary see was fully aware of his pleasing voice and minimal facility when he launched into the children's ditty? That was my first intuition upon seeing the clip. Reminded me of a famed preacher in West Oakland in my teens, Rv. Narcissus. Can't make this stuff up.
    Did anyone else notice that the organist's improvisations plowed through the circle of fifths with abandon, often landing on "wrong" chords in a willy-nilly fashion? This was done with intent. Bold, yes. Appropriate.....?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    If it weren't for the reported No Comment from the organist, I'd be VERY much inclined to take Stimson's charitable read.

    I would have had to go to My Special Place had I been in the Grotto during this ecclesiastical echo of "Deliverance". I would at least have resorted to the lav.

    The poor judgment of the bishop doesn't salve what appears to be (see my first paragraph above) the poor judgment of the organist. Consequentialism is rarely invoked for ostensibly bad *ends* - if it were, it would be so much easier to resist, wouldn't it?
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The way I see it, when the bishop strayed from the rubrics and started tiptoeing through the tulips, the organist followed him into liturgical never-never land and brought him back on track and artfully restored decorum. The liturgy does not belong to the bishop, it belongs to the entire Church, and the faithful have a right to proper liturgy. (cf. Redemptionis sacramentum)

    While the Mass was being temporarily held hostage by the bishop, the organist did a service to the bishop and the people by calling the bishop back to appropriate behavior in church.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Yeah, the organist may have messed up, and I think he did, to be honest, but the congregation and (especially) those serving, concelebrating, or acting as deacons are held hostage too and can do nothing or very little about it. The latter have to interact with him in a different way, both afterwards in the sacristy and in diocesan business, for the clergy. The bishop should have acted better. And he definitely knew that it was out of line, given the quip once the music finally stopped.

    I would have cut off the PA, and that would probably be enough to keep me from saying something later.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Except that it's quite arguable whether that action actually restored decorum.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    I’m in agreement, I think, Liam. I just understand why he did it. He certainly expressed the feelings of PIPs.
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 392
    I asked a priest about this and the priest saw nothing wrong with the organist's actions.

    What was the organist playing, btw? Anyone know?
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    I detected a snippet of Veni Creator at the end.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Matthew

    I don't doubt that he did. Feelings are, ultimately, just information (typically, a relatively crude form of information that is based on past experiences or apprehensions); what to do with the information involves a decision. The organist was not coerced into this decision so far as we can tell. (OK, there's a remote chance Luca Brasi was in the organ loft?)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Two wrongs don't make a right. The organist owes the bishop an apology.


    Too bad this isn't the Middle Ages. They could have thrashed him and ridden him out of town on a rail. Unfortunately, the civil authorities now protect the scoundrels as well as the good guys.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Folks in Detroit know that His Excellency does this at Confirmations. Another parish asked him the week before their Confirmations if he might skip the uke and he abided by their request.

    Also for what it's worrh - His Excellency has celebrated the EF before.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Also for what it's worrh - His Excellency has celebrated the EF before.


    And Satan can quote scripture? In all fairness, I don't know the man and might think well of him if I did. But I am also glad I don't have to put up with antics from him. Our show-offs are bad enough without importing anyone else's.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    In my admittedly limited experience, it's not rare for confirmation bishops to have a schtick of sorts designed (in their view) to appeal to sensibility of a confirmand cohort. I can remember my own rent-a-confirming-bishop from Brazil (Luso-American guy) circa 1972; and he had a schtick though he was no one's idea of a populist liturgically.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    The simple solution would've been that the Bishop should've used an electric guitar instead of a ukulele, so when he started straying off into Parts Unknown you just give him the "Ottaviani Treatment" and pull the plug on his amp. Instant silence.

    Therefore, electric guitars are appropriate for the sanctuary. Q.E.D.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    @melo - La Puce Gentille du Pape Francois!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-2gcV1JoLg
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Does the Grotto regularly have confirmandi and visits from this bishop? It’s possible they didn’t know or hoped it was not going to happen... Who knows?
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    From what I have read, if a parish requests "no ukulele", he honors that. Strange that a parish would have to request "no ukulele", though, when making arrangements with the bishop.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CCooze
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Strange that a parish would have to request "no ukulele", though, when making arrangements with the bishop.


    Or tamborines. or sousaphones. or calliopes.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Um, maybe the organist shouldn't have... but I'm glad he did.... and notice that his pastor didn't fire him!
  • SponsaChristi
    Posts: 392
    The simple solution would've been that the Bishop should've used an electric guitar instead of a ukulele, so when he started straying off into Parts Unknown you just give him the "Ottaviani Treatment" and pull the plug on his amp. Instant silence.


    I know of a priest who actually did just that one Lent. He didn't want any music for the recessional, so he pulled the plug on my brother's electric acoustic guitar at one of those Teen Life Masses.
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    I am not sure if I am in complete agreement with the Grotto organist's response, but I still want to buy that organist a fine Michigan brew in recognition of sheer guts in musically calling a wayward shepherd back to his duty.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The bishop is the episcopal vicar for the central region, so his visit to the Grotto was routine. It seems also that he took the accompaniment added by the organist in good humor; his thanks (heard on the video) sound gracious enough, and (according to what I've seen on the net) he quipped later that he'd be asking the organist to join him for confirmations elsewhere.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Wow.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    "Thank you, Bishop, but I only accompany Sacred music."
  • The most lamentable thing about this incident is, so I am led to believe, that it is not at all uncommon. Yes, maybe the organist was disrespectful to a successor to the apostles; but this successor was not being respectful of the very Sacred Mysteries to which he is charged to give profound respect and guardianship - nor to The People, who, likewise, are worthy of greater respect and esteem. If more people would put their feet down, either on the organ pedals, or walk out the door on them, perhaps a good amount of this foolishness would stop. Cleary, his excellency thinks that The People are half-wits. This is not what we should expect of the apostles' successors - nor tolerate. As I said somewhere above, clerics such as this one clearly have nothing to say, so they stoop to entertaining - and make fools of themselves.

    (And! We so often look to the Vatican to stanch this sort of thing. Well, dear friends, it is the Vatican that makes bishops out of them! Is it any wonder that they, in turn, ordain so many priests who are just like them?)
    Thanked by 1moderntrad
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    To say that his Excellency thinks the laity are half-wits is not quite right. There are several web pages that thank him for singing his little song at other parishes, so he probably thinks he's doing something that pleases people.

    Perhaps he's just acting according to his formation; he was ordained in 1974, as the Archdiocese was dominated by 'progressive' attitudes, under the governance of Cdl. Dearden.

    While the ukulele shtick is clearly ridiculous -- we should we start a Gofundme drive to thank the organist! -- the prelate has actually been helpful to Detroit traditionalists, and has offered Mass in the old form himself.
  • ...acting according to his formation...

    Clearly then, we need another re-formation! (To correct the de-formation.)

    I'll not comment on the intellectual rectitude and moral fibre that wouldn't resist with all its might being 'formed' in such manner. This is not the measure of wisdom and spiritual perspicacity that amazed the elders at a twelve-year-old boy, or that learned Greeks sought out to see - nor that of anyone who would be thought in persona Christi, or an alter Christi.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I believe SC mentions something about performing one's liturgical office completely and only the duties of one's office. Performing an entertaining solo such as this, I think, is beyond the office of celebrant during the liturgy.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    It appears that some people here are ensnared by the current fad of "tolerance."

    Let us recall that, strictly speaking, one "tolerates" evil. This toleration is for the sake of 'civility', and has often been equated to 'having good manners.' Often tolerance is utilized from a position of weakness, or when one is incapable of halting the evil action without engendering even more evil. Thus, the US 'tolerated' the Soviet Union's evils throughout the first 75 years of the 1900's.

    But 'tolerance' is not superior to all other virtues, any more than "good manners" are. The proper response to evil action is to put a stop to it or, secondarily, a strong and direct reprimand. When one sees an assault on the street, one should not "tolerate" it; one is obliged to halt it if at all possible.

    The Bishop's action was an assault on right order, which is a serious matter. If the Bishop wants to be a clown, he can do that someplace other than the sanctuary.

    As I recall, Jesus did not 'tolerate' moneychangers in the Temple, and the parallel here is obvious.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    well said dad29

    we should not tolerate any evil but bring it to light.
  • Sadly, This sort of thing is becoming commonplace. The last mass I played, a First Communion Mass, I listened to Our Lord being referred to as "Big J" at least ten times! I certainly wanted to "comment"- however, I bit my lip and reminded myself that it was my last mass there. However, I do have great hope for many of the young priests who are just beginning their priestly ministries. Many of them have a much greater sense of the sacred. Let's pray for their success and for many more like them! (I just realized that I should clarify that this was not a bishop referring to Our Lord as "Big J".)
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The last mass I played, a First Communion Mass, I listened to Our Lord being referred to as "Big J" at least ten times!

    Digression Alert.
    How speedily doth the worm turn, Samuel! I have to wonder if Ap. Cordileone had remained in Oaktown, would the disintegration have still occurred?
  • Sadly, Charles, that is only conjectural. I don't think any ordinary wants to "meddle" in the affairs of a parish run by a religious order, save where law suits might be involved.
    When I was told by the new pastor that he didn't like my music selections, I explained that they were in line with what would be found in any American cathedral or major parish. I was told, "This isn't an American parish. It's Asian." The new principal told the music teacher that she didn't want the children singing Latin. "That is adult music; and besides, no one sings it any more." So she brought in a friend, another nun with a guitar, who was a "liturgical expert". She began teaching the "My Little Pony" Mess(e) and child-friendly music! I had no other alternative! It was time to retire from there! I hope though that I might find somewhere pleasant to land. I am not ready to quit yet!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    child-friendly music


    Because the time-honored music of the Holy Catholic Church isn't suitable for children.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    The new principal told the music teacher that she didn't want the children singing Latin. "That is adult music; and besides, no one sings it any more."


    What you should say to this nonsense,
    "Do you think the children/adults are too stupid to understand Latin?"

    "Actually fewer people sing this music because people like you think other people are equally stupid"

    "It is not very charitable to think other people are stupid, what would Pope Francis say?"
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Or...

    "No one sings it anymore because nobody has been teaching it."

    "For more than 1000 years children and adults sang in Latin."

    "The Church says people should be singing in Latin still." (reference relevant sections of Sacrosanctum Concilium, make sure to mention that Vatican II put out this document).