Hymnal Recommendations - Encompassing both chant and polyphony
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    Hi everyone,
    My parish is in the process of choosing a hymnal for the congregation to use during Mass. I am on the hymnal committee, and would like to get your suggestions for a great hymnal that would encompass both traditional polyphony and Gregorian Chant. At this point, my choir is using the Adoremus hymnal to rehearse and sing from, and while it is a very good hymnal, its selection of both chant and polyphony is somewhat limited. Is there any hymnal out there that includes a wider selection of both chant and polyphony, while still maintaining the core repertoire found in the Adoremus hymnal? It would be great if there was one amazing hymnal with all of this, but if such a thing does not exist, please feel free to recommend two resources that together could encompass the criteria described above.
    I look forward to hearing your suggestions!
    - John Paul
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    A hymnal is for congregational use, so no hymnal is going to have polyphony, which by necessity is strictly choral. For polyphony, go with public domain at imslp.org and quality published editions. For congregational resources, I recommend the Lumen Christi series: illuminarepublications.com.
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    The St. Gregory Hymnal immediately comes to mind. More polyphony than chant, but it's something to consider.
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    doneill: it seems that there is some disagreement about what constitutes "sacred polyphony", even on this forum. However, I am not an expert on these matters, and have no formal education in sacred music.
    Just to clarify, though, what I meant by polyphony is anything that is not chant that contains the potential for instrumental or vocal harmony, in this case specifically referring to vernacular hymns that would be sung by the congregation.
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    Bobby: I think I heard somewhere that the St. Gregory Hymnal is out of print? Is that correct?
  • I wholeheartedly recommend the Lumen Christi Hymnal. Get yourself a reference copy as soon as possible. You can order it from Lumen Christi publications via the internet. The first half of this book is very well chosen hymns for normal use at mass, with excellent tunes and absolutely no dross. The second half is English translations of the office hymns set to their plainchant tunes as in Liber Hymnarius. These office hymns, besides being useful for the divine office and private or public devotions, could also be useful at mass. Of particular merit is that the hymn texts have been left intact and have not been castrated to appease gender nuts. The single disappointment of this book is that the plainchant is in round note heads rather than chant notation. Do not fail seriously to consider this book.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The only serious pew hymnal that contained sufficient polyphony and strophic hymnody I've ever encountered was the Pius X. It's almost as if their editors saw the 21st century coming.
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    Yes. You would need a donation or a church selling their copies. I don't think it's really what you are looking for anyway.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    If you want a hymnal
    -- that is in print
    -- that contains Mass ordinary settings: several in chant, and several modern compositions
    -- that contains classic hymns, mostly in English.

    There are only a few choices:
    -- Adoremus Hymnal
    -- St. Michael Hymnal (second edition)

    I think that's about it. Any others? Of course, all the major mainstream hymnals include the ICEL Mass ordinary melodies from the Roman Missal; and they probably also contain the Missa Primitiva. I'm going to consider that as not enough chant to be of interest.

    I don't think that the Lumen Christi Hymnal contains any Mass ordinaries; if you don't need them in a hymnal, that gives you one more option.
  • I’ll second a commendation of the Lumen Christi Hymnal.

    I also should add that my parish is happy with the Ignatius Pew Missal. It’s not a hardbound hymnal: take the good with the bad. There’s quite a good selection of hymnody in there. Of particular note here is the adaptation of Healey Willan’s “Missa de Sancta Maria Magdalena” to the new ICEL translation.

    You may also appreciate its musical settings of the Missal entrance/communion antiphons. I find this kind of thing misguided and musically unsatisfying, but hey.

    Finally, there is a perhaps overly-representative share of Taizé and the likes of “Here I Am, Lord”: not much of it, really, but just enough to assuage folks who might otherwise be concerned about not having stuff like “Be Not Afraid”. I have no need of it and so wish it were gone, but I sympathize with the rationale for its inclusion.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Lumen Christi or St. Michael
  • lmassery
    Posts: 405
    If those above don't suit you, make your own hymnal and publish it through Lulu or Amazon
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Priestboi
    Posts: 155
    @lmassery-something that I would love to do! Our country needs a good hymnal that is not so...meh (Gather Comprehensive/Celebration)

    I would need some help with how to get around copyright etc. or rather how to make double sure even if commons work is used one does not get into trouble.
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I'm doing more research on the St. Michael and Lumen Christi hymnals. Also, I found another hymnal, the Credo hymnal published by ILP. It looks like it has quite an extensive selection.
    http://www.ilpmusic.org/category/Credo.html
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • lmassery
    Posts: 405
    Priestboi - It is not as difficult as you may think - I'll PM you. In JohnPaul's case the copyright stuff may be a cinch, as it seems most of what he is after would be public domain.
  • lmassery's done a fine job for his parish! Take his advice.
    Thanked by 1lmassery
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    I'd love to learn more about making hymnals, too, as well as the copyrights and typesetting involved. It sounds like a great idea, though it's probably a lot of work :)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    it's probably a lot of work :)


    Way more than you can imagine.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    Is your music director saying things like "we need a hymnal to sing polyphony"?
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    Hymnal and choir pieces ? Ha I cannot even,

    Ph
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    Hi everyone,
    Thank you all for your great ideas and advice. Right now I think I have it narrowed down to the St. Michael and Credo hymnals. What are your experiences with these, and how to they compare to each other? I already know the obvious, stuff like Mass settings and hymn selection, and I have run out a detailed analysis of their hymn selections vs. my music planners from the last 2 years. However, if any of you have personally used these in your parishes, please let me know. Are they hard to use, or poorly organized, or physically heavy (for the older folks) or do they have strange settings for music, or funny translations, etc.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    St. Michael. I get money.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Isn't the Credo hymnal melody only? Then again, maybe that is all you require, although it might give SATB choir members fits.

  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    St. Michael. It needs more exposure. The lady in charge of this monumental project is the director of a parish right down the road from me, and so far, only her parish and another in the diocese are using it.

    I guess its sheer magnificence is daunting!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    St. Michael. I get the smallest fraction of what Richard gets.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    St. Michael. I get money.

    St. Michael. I get the smallest fraction of what Richard gets.

    I love it. I can totally hear this conversation:

    Organist: Which book of organ-chorales should I get?
    Bach: Orgelbuchlein. I get money.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Kathy
  • lmassery
    Posts: 405
    St. Michael is a great hymnal. As for making your own, it is indeed a lot of work but it all depends on what/how much you are putting in. It was well worth the time at my parish and I still get at least one compliment per week on the hymnal and it's been 6 months since we started using them. The response has been overwhelmingly positive.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    St. Michael 4th edition is the best comprehensive hymnal currently available. Our chapel had St. Michael 3rd edition and Worship III. I was considering replacing W3 with Adoremus, but decided instead to replace both with St. Michael 4. It's got a little of everything, and most of what is in Adoremus is in SMH 4.

    Lumen Christi wasn't out yet when I made my decision. I do really like LC, but it assumes that you will be singing mostly antiphons and ordinaries from another resource. If your parish is ready to adopt the Lumen Christi missal, gradual and hymnal, then go for it. But if you want a single volume comprehensive resource, then St. Michael is the way to go.
  • The Credo hymnal is very contemporary. The St. Michael is not.

    We publish hymnals, but also advise people on how to build their own and assist them in the process at no charge. Most recently we did the engraving for modern notation for a major publisher, did a custom hymnal hardbound for a parish and advised another church musician on how to create and publish his own parish hymnal.

    It's really great to be doing this at a time where such things are possible and wanted by people!

    All the hymnals mentioned above by group members are excellent.

    www.frogmusic.com
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    Why do you say that the Credo hymnal is contemporary? I looked through the index and it seemed fairly traditional to me.
    Am I missing something?
  • Listen to the Mass setting audio files.

    The first one I clicked on:

    http://www.ilpmusic.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=91bbe9f1757b526b23a8c10e8c604d97&Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=VA&Category_Code=MassofRock

    Many of the mass settings are scored for organ, piano and with optional orchestral settings. Some include guitar.

    The amount of music that HAS to be accompanied, like this mass setting and others, makes it contemporary.

    Look at the number of hymns that are copyright. Compare it to St. Michael.

    If you like and want to do contemporary style music at mass, this book is much better than St. Michael.

    To me, and I may be alone in this, choosing a hymnal means more than getting a book that I like. Instead it's choosing a book that will serve for 20-30 years. If the book has music in it in styles that do not fit the Mass, even if you choose to never use them, the next person that replaces you may swing the music program in a totally different direction and you have made that possible.

    Remember, we are here for a short time. But our decisions last longer.

    To me, once again, the difference between secular music and sacred music is emphasis. Sacred music, in my mind, is based upon the words. Music is composed to carry the words. When music, be it Mozart or a guitar group strumming away, brings more attention to the music over the words, it becomes less sacred.

    The Ave Maria of Schubert, Bach-Gounod, compared to the Gregorian Chant Ave. When music begins to rely on instruments to create the pulse to fill long silent pauses, or to fill time while a soprano sings a very long note, the words have become secondary to the music.

    Contemporary music relies on musical patterns, which restricts the text and forces it to fit a pattern often different than it is normally spoken. And that applies to hymns as well. A scripture passage that is set as a hymn is distorted to make it rhyme and scan and fit. It, like paraphrased psalms is no longer as accurate as it once was.

    This does not say that Mozart is not sacred music. But it does say to me why chant is more sacred.
  • JohnPaul
    Posts: 14
    I'm sorry, Noel, but there appears to be some confusion. The Credo hymnal does not include the Mass of Rock, although that Mass is published by ILP.
    I'm referring to http://www.ilpmusic.org/pdfs/CREDO_preview.pdfwhere they have a preview of the table contents. Most of the songs my choir sings are in public domain, and the majority of the songs we sing were contained in the Credo Hymnal. It also has the Jubilate Deo and Mass VIII.
    Perhaps you are thinking of the St. Augustine hymnal, also published by ILP, but is definitely more contemporary?
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    So... I am guessing from visiting the site that St. Michael hymnal does not include readings from the lectionary for the 3-yr cycle?
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    No, it does not
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I like the St. Michael, but the lack of readings has killed every effort to buy it in my place.
  • I did fail to track down which masses were in that exact book. I apologize.

    What I heard were a couple of masses that were contemporary in style and a heavy emphasis on use of piano or orchestral instruments on almost all the mass settings.

    You would not find that in the St. Michael hymnal. There's a reason.

  • Readings printed in a book for the congregation to read while they are supposed to be participating at mass are totally anti-active and full participation in the Mass. Ask Fr. Dr. Orr his opinion. I'd be interested in his erudite view of this, Charles...and give him and the pastor my best.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Bravo, Noel!
    The lectionary at mass is read out, proclaimed, delivered. It is not read by a passive listener who is reading his own private little copy whilst the lector just happens to be delivering the sacred text. If readings are printed in missals and such, they might legitimately be used for private study in preparation for mass. This is but another part of the mass (in addition to choral embellishments and clerical parts) in which the whole people actively (attentively!) listen and assimilate, not privately follow along. (It helps when the lectors are really skilled in oratory and have very carefully prepared their texts - which all too aften is not the case. In fact, if a lector really knows what he is doing when delivering his sacred text none would be able to take their eyes off him or fail to be caught up in his delivery.)
    Thanked by 1ryand
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,963
    The Credo hymnal fascinates me. Their preview pages emphasize Form A and the Kyrie as well as the Canon (as opposed to showing II). If Franciscan University had not published its own hymnal, they would have bought this one had it been out there. What it lacks for can be found in missalettes or for big Masses, put on Powerpoint in the gym. Well, I take that halfway back: the ones really specific to the charismatic renewal aren’t included, but we sing so much without a text anyways that we would make do (which I think is horrible: print a sheet if you must!!).

    My choir director and I would probably still be desiring other hymns of all sorts...“My Song is Love Unknown” is an unlikely candidate, as with many Anglican hymns but I did not see “Eternal Father, Strong to Save,” whixh surprised me. And I am for square notes 100%.

    But I think it’s great with only those caveats. It could simultaneously pass muster at FUS and somewhere moving along a reform of the reform direction that needs more bulk than Adoremus in permanent form. We have the AH at my parish, but usually at least one of the two, sometimes three hymns at the Mass with propers is printed on the service sheet.


    MJO, because they ought to be singing the lections well, at least on Sundays and high feasts.

    I tend to get really lost at daily Mass with the longwinded Old Testament readings that get more confusing if one missed Mass the day before. At least singing it would hold my attention to the use of the prophecy tone (or Epistle tone, if there be only one lesson). Certainly private study is to be encouraged...but just what is the point of including the readings in books used at Mass when they are in the vernacular?

    One of the more obnoxious bits about the 1962 missal is the permission for the priest to read the reading at Missa Cantata. If he cannot sing it, after questioning why he is offering a Sung Mass, I would suggest he read it quietly and a lector (instituted or not, so long as he be male) in cassock and surplice sing it in Latin. This is done in a few places, and I see little difference between this and the lector reading in the vernacular while the priest reads it in Latin.