Organ in Lent...
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,963
    At Mass we (finally) sang "Lord Who Throughout These Forty Days" (ST FLAVIAN) and "O Sacred Head Surrounded" (the tune found in OCP).

    Is there any reason to use the organ for these hymns? I feel like these are hymns where one can hear a measure (or maybe a verse) and then sing from memory... I know the organ in the Ordinary Form can be used to support the singing, but considering I've heard no change from Ordinary Time re: the amount of organ (and other instrumentation), here and in most parishes, I rather question the application of this rubric...

    Second, is the tune for "O Sacred Head Surrounded" an OCP original? It would be neat to find verses notmodified by Alstott.

    Cue discussion on other Lenten hymns...Next spring, when I am singing again, I promise to bug my choir director about other hymns. There were some neat ones mentioned elsewhere on this forum...
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    http://www.hymnary.org/text/o_sacred_head_now_wounded_with_grief
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    I think it would depend on how well the congregation knows it and if there's a good cantor/choir to lead it. Some congregations do just fine with singing unaccompanied if it's a hymn they know well, but some aren't as confident when they don't have the organ to back them up. I've had a lot of people tell me that they like to sing when the organ is loud because they feel like no one will hear them singing, so they don't feel so awkward. I do love the sound of a full congregation all singing unaccompanied, though.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I use the organ to accompany singing as is allowed by the GIRM, not caring a whit what earlier missals or rituals prescribe. They are not applicable outside the rite for which they were written. That being said, what you won't hear at my place are postludes, preludes, or any other pieces played, except for "pink" Sunday when they are allowed - have you noticed most parishes use pink rather than rose? Go figure. The organ trumpets are silenced during Lent until Holy Thursday, which some hold isn't part of Lent anyway.

    It seems that every year someone brings up the subject of playing the organ during Lent. Why not just follow the rules applicable to the particular rite in which you are functioning?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,963
    Charles, my question is then, how much is too much when accompanying the singing? I agree preludes and postludes fall outside the spirit, if not the letter, of the rubric. But if there is no discernible difference in the use of the organ or other instrumentation (guitar, primarily) when accompanying the singing, I wonder why we bother with the rubric. The very specific nature of that rubric suggests to me that as we cut the organ out of other places in the liturgy, it ought to be restrained where it is still allowed.

    My own answer is firstly that it's something you know when you hear it...I personally think it should be limited to the light notes played to give a pitch for a Psalm tone or when singing the Kyrie. A great technical description, I know.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    No postlude here, very moderate playing during communion to cover the noise in the OF Sunday masses.

    As far as I remember, the rules for EF and OF (cf. Redemptionis sacramentum) are the same, which is why I make almost no difference in playing for them (except that I keep the organ silent during communion in the weekday EF mass).
  • FidemInFidebusFidemInFidebus
    Posts: 611
    Just curious about how many churches are "business as usual" during Lent like mine is. We never have postlude just a closing hymn, but there's always prelude and communion hymn no matter what time of year it is. :-/
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 90
    Here there is no prelude, postlude, or interludes of any kind during Lent. Our Rector prefers that we leave the Mass in silence, and if the organ (or piano) MUST be used (sigh) it is only during the singing to help the choir stay on pitch. My schola does everything a cappella during Lent, but we will have organ this Sunday for Laetare. I do believe, however, that this is because I live in a fairly orthodox diocese.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    I do believe, however, that this is because I live in a fairly orthodox diocese.


    More likely that your Diocese has a long history of orthodoxy. I know of one (WI) Diocese with a remarkably orthodox Bishop who succeeded a far more flaccid one; the wreckage is very difficult to clean up--and it takes a LOT of time to do so.

    Charles: what you're seeing in the 'questions being brought up' is a wonderful demonstration that musicians CARE about distinguishing Lent from other seasons. If they don't (as is the case in several parishes near me), why would the Faithful discern a difference?
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    "ANY reason to use the organ for these hymns?"
    Ha. Yes. If there are 40 people in the pews of a church that seats 1000, and they don't sing with or without the organ! Let's not have the cantor (me) suffer alone...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Charles, my question is then, how much is too much when accompanying the singing


    The GIRM says that the organ is not to be used except to accompany singing - "pink" Sunday being the exception along with solemnities, feasts, etc. I think the organist is expected to use a bit of common sense and not play trumpet descants to accompany singing. I use light registrations that are enough to keep everyone on pitch and together, but I don't use the louder ranks because they are unnecessary.

    Charles: what you're seeing in the 'questions being brought up' is a wonderful demonstration that musicians CARE about distinguishing Lent from other seasons.


    I am glad everyone cares, as they should. However, the rules are pretty clear and I don't understand the need to parse them and try to make them more complicated.

  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    The GIRM says that the organ is not to be used except to accompany singing


    Could someone provide a link to the GIRM guidelines for the organ during Lent? I've been trying to find it online but I can't find it anywhere.

    I just use the more simple registrations for hymn accompaniment during Lent. That basically means no mixtures, no full pedal registration (just a 16' bourdon and 8' octave) and nothing "fancy" like trumpets or whatnot. I don't know if anyone notices a difference, but I think it will be nice to pull out all the stops on Easter Sunday and really make it sound joyful.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    The GIRM says nothing about registration. It just tells you not to play preludes, postludes, voluntaries, etc. at Mass.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    It's in paragraph 313:
    http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-5.cfm

    In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.
    Thanked by 1musiclover88
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The GIRM says nothing about registration. It just tells you not to play preludes, postludes, voluntaries, etc. at Mass.


    True, the GIRM says nothing about registrations. However, I am saving the trumpets for Holy Thursday. Having been silent for all of Lent, they will have more of an impact.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    The gloria on holy Thursday is a great time to pull out some jubilant registration. We have a nice gloria planned with full organ. Then silent afterward until the vigil's gloria, of course.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I play a set of trumpet fanfares leading up to full organ to introduce the Gloria. Throughout the Gloria all the altar bells and the tower bells are rung - the big 1700-pound bell really is noticeable. Then, only music for the Ordinary, choir anthem, and eventually silence until Good Friday. Then only soft registrations for a couple of hymns and an anthem, then silence again until the Easter Vigil Gloria - more trumpet fanfares, bells, and rejoicing in the risen Lord. All worth waiting a year for, I think.
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    the big 1700-pound bell really is noticeable


    Ahh, I would love to be able to hear that! I need to think of some good registrations for the Gloria on Holy Thursday. I don't really like the trumpets on the organ I play, but hopefully I can come up with something good. The pedals have a 16' bombarde that I've been wanting to use forever, but I wonder if it would sound silly...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Bombardes are nice! Can you combine other stops or mixtures with the trumpet to improve the sound?
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    I'll have to experiment a bit and see what I can come up with. There's an 8' trumpet that sounds ok but it's sort of lame, and a 16' double trumpet that can sound cool, but people always think it's bagpipes instead of trumpets. There's also an oboe stop and a clarinet stop that I don't use very often, so I'll have to see what they would sound like. The oboe is really pretty.

    Now that I think of it, there are 16' and 8' trumpet stops in the pedal, too. Those might sound better than the one on the swell registration. I always get sort of nervous to use the "special" stops because I'm afraid they'll sound terrible and the congregation will be craning their necks to look up at the choir loft with that look in their eye that says, "what the crap are they trying to do now?!" Ugh, that is the worst!
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    Does the restriction on the organ/instrumental music during Lent include Palm Sunday? I know there are a lot of these threads around but I've never been able to find one that specifically mentions Palm Sunday.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Holy Week is part of Lent, and ... well, that's reason enough to continue the Lenten abstinence.
  • Bobby Bolin
    Posts: 417
    Thanks!
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    My EF practice, FWIW:
    We use organ for most anything the congregation might sing with: the Ordinary and the processional/recessional hymn...but NOT the Asperges. Some limited organ for Offertory pieces if it isn't really an independent part. Of course, no solo organ. Sunday we'll use a fair bit until the Passion, then nothing until the last hymn, which will be organ parts, treble-bass, melody alone, and then a cappella for the last verse. Since we aren't doing a Latin Triduum, it's a nod in that direction.
  • pgonciarz
    Posts: 8
    Actually many organists, myself included use an organ prelude on both Palm Sunday and Holy Thursday. A well thought, organ prelude enhances Palm Sunday's joyous beginning to the liturgy. Perhaps a chorale prelude on St. Theodulph. And during the blessing of palms, I use the setting of Hosana Filio David by Jean Demessiuex. Of course, as soon as the liturgy of the word begins, everything changes and I use the organ only to accompany singing. I don't use any more than my Swell Principal 8', Gedeckt 8', and my Spitz Flute 8' (Salicional like).

    On Holy Thursday, I use an organ prelude as well. Actually I often use two - one on Ubi Caritas and one on Pange Lingua. There is a very gorgeous setting of Pange Lingua by Dupre from the 8 Short Gregorian Preludes collection. This year I'm just using one prelude - a set of variations on Ubi Caritas by Denis Bedard. And during the opening Hymn, Lift High the Cross, I nearly hit full organ, as well as during the Gloria. But then after the Gloria, I use only my swell 8's when necessary.
    Thanked by 1musiclover88
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    When I worked at an Episcopal Church:

    - First organist I had, if I tried to suggest he not play Preludes and Postludes, he became somewhat offended. For him, the Pre and Post were PART OF THE LITURGY. (If for some reason we were running late, he would still play a prelude --- even a short one --- before the Entrance hymn.)

    - Second one, who really groked liturgical issues a lot better --- we discussed it, and he would have been cool either way. I don't remember if it was his idea, or mine, but we decided that not having a prelude and postlude would NOT contribute to an atmosphere of solemnity, but rather would just provide a less distracting place for people to talk very loudly. Our solution was for him to play deliberately more meditative and somber music.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Groked, did he?
    Um, what exactly is groking?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

    Basically, to "understand."

    It is used by computer geeks to talk about a deep understanding of a technology or problem domain.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Oh, I grok now.

    Computerdom, beyond certain elementary use, is rather strange to me: I don't grok it at all, but I really do grok William Byrd... and Jehan Titelouze!



    (Nice word!)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • musiclover88
    Posts: 156
    Actually many organists, myself included use an organ prelude on both Palm Sunday and Holy Thursday. A well thought, organ prelude enhances Palm Sunday's joyous beginning to the liturgy. Perhaps a chorale prelude on St. Theodulph. And during the blessing of palms, I use the setting of Hosana Filio David by Jean Demessiuex. Of course, as soon as the liturgy of the word begins, everything changes and I use the organ only to accompany singing. I don't use any more than my Swell Principal 8', Gedeckt 8', and my Spitz Flute 8' (Salicional like).

    On Holy Thursday, I use an organ prelude as well. Actually I often use two - one on Ubi Caritas and one on Pange Lingua. There is a very gorgeous setting of Pange Lingua by Dupre from the 8 Short Gregorian Preludes collection. This year I'm just using one prelude - a set of variations on Ubi Caritas by Denis Bedard. And during the opening Hymn, Lift High the Cross, I nearly hit full organ, as well as during the Gloria. But then after the Gloria, I use only my swell 8's when necessary.


    I really like that idea, pgonciarz. I'm planning on starting Palm Sunday with a nearly full organ as we sing Hosanna, but then I'm going to cut back quite a bit to just using a Harmonic Flute 8', Chimney Flute 8', and a Flute Harmonique 4'. If I need a little more support I'll add the Viola 8' on the swell. Then for the closing hymn, "O Sacred Head Surrounded," we're going to sing that a cappella. I'm hoping that it will help to end the Mass on a very solemn note, but I'm a little bit worried because I've never attempted to do the closing hymn a cappella and the congregation is probably going to wonder what the heck I'm doing. Plus, the Knights are making breakfast after Mass, so half of them will probably be running downstairs to get a good seat. Whatever.

    Are you planning on doing any fanfare or special stops during the Gloria on Holy Thursday? I'm thinking about adding an 8' trumpet, but I'm not sure.
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