Do the people still know Christmas carols?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Today is the Solemnity of the Nativity, and at my work church, some of the folks attending Mass looked a little blank when it was time to sing Christmas carols. It makes me wonder if the knowledge of these songs is starting to slip away. What's your impression?

    After all, how do kids even learn Christmas carols now? I assume the public schools don't teach them any more, as mine did in the '60s. In church, we're Advent purists, so that when the carols are being heard out in the streets and the stores from December 1-24, they're not heard in church, and when we do start singing them, it's only on four occasions: Christmas, Holy Family, Mary Mother of God (maybe!), and the Sunday observance of Epiphany. Do they get 'em in CCD class?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Our kids learn carols in the Catholic schools, and our adults have been singing them for years. Not a problem with us. We sing them through the Baptism of the Lord, which I understand is the last day of the Christmas season.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    I've noticed the radio Christmas music seems more secular this year than last.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Even on Christian stations, I think.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Can't say I've noticed this to be true. I hear them everywhere still and the people belt them out.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    I was starting to get a little alarmed at the early 3-man show (celebrant, organist, cantor) when no one joined the first stanza of communion hymn "It came upon the midnight clear". By verse 3 I could safely drop to the bass part for a rest though.

    The most surprising display of enthusiasm was "Away in a manger" at Midnight Mass, and it was the older crowd that really sang out. I haven't noticed that "O come", "Hark the herald", "Angels we have heard" "Silent night" and "Joy to the world" are suffering any by only being sung once a year.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    The only thing that really bothered me with the carols before and at Mass this Christmas was the crappy changes to the traditional texts printed for all to see, thanks to OCP. It didn't help that the Ordinary was by Schutte, too.
  • As Maggie Smith might say: 'um, who is Schutte?'
    (I really do not know.)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Originally, one of the "St. Louis Jesuits" group of composers.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As Maggie Smith might say: 'um, who is Schutte?'
    (I really do not know.)


    You don't want to know. Ignorance truly is bliss in this instance.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Gavin
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Amen Charles.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Chonak, I'll second your observation. It seemed that people were a bit tentative about the Christmas Standards: Adeste, Joy to the World, Angels We Have Heard, The First Noel, any of them. Maybe people come the Christmas Masses---including regulars and C&E Catholics---with an expectation of "showtime" or entertainment rather than participation and communal sharing in the liturgy.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 242
    At my parish people sang better than average at all except the 4:30PM Christmas Eve Mass, which incidentally was also the most packed. Almost no one singing.

    At the other Masses, everyone sang O Come, Hark, Joy to the World at the top of their lungs...and a large percentage sang silent night but quietly (appropriately).

    My cantor, who turned pages, had to fend off more people than usual who wanted to converse with me while I was performing brain surgery playing a Bach prelude and fugue after Mass.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    At my parish people sang better than average at all except the 4:30PM Christmas Eve Mass, which incidentally was also the most packed. Almost no one singing.

    My Masses were the same: the 4:00 Vigil had the most people - many of whom didn't sing. And it wasn't as if they didn't have the words - almost all of them picked up the worship leaflet, and yet "O Come all ye faithful" was impotent. I was wondering what exactly the problem was. Then I remembered that this was a Catholic parish.

    The midnight crowd sang their heads off. There was a good crowd of people (much more than a regular Sunday Mass), but not enough to completely deaden the acoustic (like at the vigil). There is nothing like hearing the last refrain of "See amid the winter's snow" with David Willcocks' glorious Choir II, Full Organ, and a Congregation singing the roof off.

    The Christmas day crowd (which was the smallest) also sang well.
  • It's not hard to see why.

    Almost anywhere, the early vigil is full of people who want to "get it over with," and feel some sense of guilt to go to mass at least on Christmas and Easter, lest they go to hell.

    The Midnight mass is full of people who love liturgy, and they get excitement in their voice and a twinkle in their eye when they talk about the choir, the trumpets, and the sweet smell of incense at the mass.

    Christmas Day is full of many "regular parishioners," who go to mass every week and didn't want to stay up for Midnight or prefer a less crowded mass with less fuss.

    The level of singing at each is commensurate with the attitude of each group that drives them to that particular mass.
    Thanked by 2Steve Q eft94530
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    At the four Masses I attended, I found the "taking up" of the carols by the congregation to be noticeably, palpably greater than of any years in recent memory (the text only OCP format notwithstanding, Chuck.) I can't say why, but I wouldn't rule out a sociological need to regain center balance in a hostile culture.
    And may God bless Dan Schutte.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    And may God bless Dan Schutte.


    Maybe God sent him a little pony for Christmas. ;-)
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    People sort of know some carols in a bing n frank n burl n kenny style from Nov 1 onward as they eat Denny's turkey dinner or pumpkin pancakes washed down with pumpkin flavored coffee.

    As for the 5pm vigil at my parish, i had my scrooge mood firmly established by 3 pm, sorely wishing I had been able to locate an aerosol can of eau-de-stable.

    The unruly pack of pagans arrived by 430 pm to standing room only, walked around taking photos of their bethlehem costumed kids, talked louder than prelude growing their din beyond full organ, could not bother to open a hymnal for the unfamiliar hymn verses, almost derailed the Confetior, ignored Psalm and Gospel Acclamation, got to sit for the Gospel, snickered as the female teen delivered a stilted reading of the text, with a dramatic Suddenly (followed by 55 second pause while 20+ glitter-covered angels stood and left pews by side aisle and jostled their way toward the sanctuary). Never recovered to a higher level. Sunk further as post communion santa visited to put a gift at the creche and handed out candy canes down the center aisle.

    You know things are bad when you cannot remember beyond the phrase, Saint Michael the Archangel defend us.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    bad when you cannot remember beyond the phrase, Saint Michael the Archangel defend us.
    Something about fit to be tied ;-)
  • Saint Michael the Archangel
    defend us in battle;
    be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
    May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and may thou, o Prince of the Heavenly Host,
    by the power of God, cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world, seeking the ruin of souls.

    The Late Dr. William Marra used to say that he didn't wish ill on any of the crew who wreckovated the liturgy: he wanted them to spend eternity with a sign around each neck: I reformed the liturgy.

    When the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass descends into Santa and candy canes, truly, to paraphrase Fr. George Rutler, you have already lost the argument.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Cdub, at least you have your priorities as well as your tongue firmly in cheek and check.
    There is precious little time to waste upon flinging vitriol and sarcasm at the apostates and great unwashed any ol' durn day, but 'specially Christ-mas?
    People, what are your priorities? Saving people from the enemy or abandoning them to the enemy by closing the gates of your hearts and minds? Da-nya-beet.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I've noticed carols slipping away. I once hired a high school trumpeter, a few years back, who did not know a single one. Not a one. And with contemporary music and performance-centered "praise" becoming the norm quickly, I suppose this disturbing trend will only grow worse and worse.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Slightly off-topic, has anyone else noticed another HUGE shift in attendance away from Midnight Mass towards vigils, especially when said vigils are "family" services?

    At my present church, we had 4, 7, 9, 11, and then 11 on Christmas Day. Each with noticeably less attendance over the preceding service, with Christmas Day probably having 30.
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Well Gavin, we had Midnight Mass at 5 pm, that's all there was. It was maybe 3/4 full.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    especially when said vigils are "family" services?


    Churches dig their own graves and then get surprised when they find themselves in them.
  • Is there something automatically wrong with all Schutte music? It's not like he's Haas or something (even few Haas songs can be appropriate if played and sung correctly).
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    I think our attendance at the 4pm, 6pm, and 11pm Masses were all about equal with 4 and 11 pretty just slighty ahead of 6pm. The Sung Mass at Dawn was sparse, but the Sung Mass during the Day was better attended than last year.
  • People know carols here, but hardly anyone sings at my church so I wasn't surprised to feel like an unofficial cantor yesterday morning because that's how it is. My six year old daughter loves to sing and knows her carols because she learned them for her Christmas concert at school. She also loves to sing during Mass and I think she knows the words better than most of the adults do. Even my hardly-ever-church-going-non-Catholic mother puts in a faithful effort and follows along in the missal when she comes with us. Sigh. "Work church" wasn't much better, sadly, and Presbys usually love to sing. We had a windstorm Christmas Eve and perhaps it spooked them, as power was out on the other side of town, at least that's the only excuse I can think of...although I arrived an hour before the 4:00 service to an empty and locked church, with unassembled programs waiting in a box...some seemed surprised it was Christmas already...
  • MId-night mass at Walsingham was very well attended. The people sang heartily on all the carols and hymns. With the addition of another morning mass a few months ago we now have a Saturday vigil and three Sunday morning masses, and there is talk of adding a six o'clock Sunday evening mass. We are literally bursting at the seams. Participation at all our masses is exemplary. (For me, personally, Christmas without mid-night mass is no Christmas at all. It's unthinkable.)

    The singing at St Basil's Chapel at UST was also very good on Christmas morning. The congregation there always sing heartily and love to do so. They even stay and sing very well all the stanzas of the dismissal hymn.

    I do worry, and worry very much, though, about a problem to which Gavin alludes. We are living in a land whose culture has been subject to systematic dismantling for my entire life. Large numbers of people have not had our musical, liturgical, literary, and artistic culture communicated to them, and, further, it has been consciously rejected by large numbers of people who have had it communicated to them. This is sad. It is depressing. And, I fear that it is an historical process which is going to continue. This goes far beyond the historically typical generational variants of a basically preserved culture. This is a conscious and deliberate jettisoning of old values, beliefs, mores, and aesthetic markers by our intellectual elites in and out of academia. Yes, I am astonished to encounter not infrequently people who never heard of Beethoven, et al., have never seen a work of art, nor read any of our literary canon. And, I am not talking about truck drivers. I am talking about PhDs from major universities.

    The collusion of very large numbers of our clergy (and that includes prelates!), Catholic school teachers, and Catholic university professors (not to mention monks and nuns in quite a number of orders) in this process is a fiendish calumny. (Oh! and don't forget our big publishers, mendacious and unprincipled, every one of them.) The handiwork of all the aforementioned is seen in the pop-music masses and Ed Sullivan style liturgy that are commonplace in our churches, and in congregations who know nothing but liturgical junk music and have been taught to hate our musical and linguistic patrimony. And, the seed for all this was planted over two hundred years ago in Josephine Austria and revolutionary France. We too easily forget that history is a continuum and that very little that happens does so without roots in an historical process.

  • history is a continuum


    So that's why I still have to wash dishes on Christmas day! ;=)
  • I think that it has more to do with the consumerisation of music. People don't learn to play instruments or to sing any more. They download music onto their iPods and have lots of music on-demand. Why would you go to effort of singing when you can just listen?

    People don't even "sing" the pop songs any more, they just shout out some of the catchier lyrics when they come around.

    I make a point of having at least all the best-known Christmas Carols: "O Come, All Ye Faithful"; "Joy to the World" and "Silent Night." One of my usual Christmas Carols is "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night" and "What Child is This?"
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Is there something automatically wrong with all Schutte music? It's not like he's Haas or something (even few Haas songs can be appropriate if played and sung correctly).


    Automatically, no. I have seen a few things by him that were not nearly as bad as some other music on the market. Given that he has "borrowed" well-known themes from popular pieces and used them in his works, I have difficulty not considering him anything other than a plagiarist. YMMV.
  • Why pay for the rights to use his music when there is plenty of very good public-doman/royalty-free music out there? Save the $$$ for the organ fund.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW ghmus7
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Our Midnight Mass is, was, and likely will always remain at, uh, Midnight.
    Even with our newest parish (on line in 2009) we were chock full in the nave (didn't use gallery.) when we didn't have the parish cross-town) we were always SRO.
    But I think there is a pre-dilection among clerics (ruefully encouraged benignly by parishioners) to abandon Masses scheduled on the Holy Day in favor of vigils. I'm not down widdat, personally.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    MJO, I think you nailed it.

    There were 200 people at the vigil Mass. My dad and I were the only people singing “Hark, the Herald Angels Sing.” They also skipped singing “O Come All Ye Faithful.” Grr.

    My aunt tried to pass it off as Massachusetts reservedness (we are in MA with family). No, people don’t sing, eapecially in a Christian liturgical context, and Christmas is secularized for them (I nearly choked reading the letter to the Boston Globe about Christmas being for everybody... Fine, if all accept the Christ Child!) My younger sister and I were the loudest at the sung Form C Penitential Act (deacon sang invocations with responses from Litany of the Saints melody).

    They did, however, sing a refrain Gloria that would have been OK if through-composed (it sounded somewhat like a contemporary Anglican composition style). Alas, the refrain was the “Gloria in excelsis Deo” of “Angels We Have Heard on High.” I was in tears.

    In contrast, the congregation at the Midnight Missa Cantata sang the carols well, if quietly, when Jesus was carried to the crib. Now, they didn’t sing at Mass... But that is another step towards FCAP in the best and fullest sense. All paid attention and were in no hurry.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    I didn't notice the singing on Christmas Eve (midnight) or Day (noon), and both were quite full. I was preoccupied. I went in and played for St.Stephen's day and was blown away by the sound from a mere hundred people! I think the diffence lies in the practice of the faith, at least here.
  • Where I was, Midnight Mass seemed slightly down from the previous year.
    For my EF gig, on Christmas Day, attendance seemed lower that a typical Sunday. Hard to draw conclusions about carols, since hymns aren't a big thing with us. We did a verse of Adeste fideles to get the priest in, and all of Joy to the World at the end. I can't say I heard a lot of singing, but I usually don't.

    The big atrocity: I usually arrive before the end of the 11AM P & W Mass. Final hymn was The Little Drummer Boy. I don't remember that tale from the Protoevangelion of James or the Gospels of Infancy. So it doesn't even rise to the apocryphal.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Final hymn was The Little Drummer Boy.

    Perhaps of interest to some, the "Carol of the Drum" has not been included in any English-language hymnal published in the USA in the past 60 years. The text and tune writer, Katherine K. Davis, and her estate may have had some role in keeping the carol "secular."

    But Google "himnario" for online collections of hymns from Central and South America, and "El Tamborilero" (without a copyright notice) will often be included.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Isn't Davis the author of the text of Let All Things Now Living too?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Yes, Kathy.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    Well, we in the bourbon lands sing the carols very nicely. All of the liturgies sang them with gusto. I certainly practice them with the school for the weeks before the feasts.

    Even the 4 o'clock vigil, the largest mass of the day, sang them well. But some of the carols trailed off as you got deeper into the texts.

    Oh,well, we know our carols and drink our bourbon well in the Kentucky holylands.
  • Maybe the bourbon helps people let their guard down and sing more...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    We had around 300 or so at Midnight Mass. The congregation rattled the rafters on "O Come All Ye Faithful," even singing the first verse in Latin, then the four English verses to the famous Willcocks descants. They also sang well on "Silent Night" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." The recessional, "Joy to the World" was sung so heartily, that the singers almost overpowered full organ. Carols are alive and well with us, but we were always proudly a little old-fashioned.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I recall at a former parish and former preist where "Frosty the Snowman"
    was the prelude for midnight Mass.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I recall meeting a violinist from Soviet Russia, who loved sacred music
    from before the commies came. Singing of c carols were forbidden in public.
    When he escaped to usa, it was during christmas
    and he heard people singing christmas carols right away.
    This moved him to tears. A bit later he was able to perform in Handels'
    Messiah, which he had not been able to play for 20 years.
    Sometimes when at church during Christmas, I
    start to think "O LORD, these same carols i'm
    so tired of"...I remember this Russian story.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    In Communist Russia, the lyrics forget you.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    @MatthewRoth: Let us know when you're coming to MA for holidays and we'll recommend the good parishes!
  • At my multi-ethnic California parish the true carols seem to be slipping away, alas. Today (Feast of the Holy Family) our children's choir sang "Happy birthday Jesus, I'm so glad it's Christmas" and "Hush! There's a baby".
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Last year, I heard a priest sing "When a child is born" (a Johnny Mathis song) in his Christmas Eve homily.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Several years ago I was spending Christmas with the extended family of my closest friends. I accompanied them to a) Protestant service at a(n adorable) little non-denom community church in the village on Christmas Eve and then went to Midnight Mass at the local Catholic church a few hours later.

    The only thing both services had in common?
    Singing "Happy Birthday" to Jesus.
  • Our PIPs sing like birds, especially on Christmas. The problem as many have noted is that the kids don't know the carols. I teach at a Catholic school, so I try to hit some of the more common ones so that the kids will know them. I think that the problem is that we assume they already know the carols, when we should be ensuring that they do.