Question concerning a G.I.A. publication
  • I work in a major Catholic Church. On the piano in the practice room, I saw a book by G.I.A. of responsorial Psalms. It was called "Lectionary Psalms--Grail/Gelineau."

    I photocopied the title page and I am looking at it now. It says, "The Psalms copyright © 1963 by The Grail, England. All rights reserved. Published with Ecclesiastical approval. Archdiocese of Chicago. Copyright © by 1987, 1998 by G.I.A. Publications Inc. Chicago Illinois 60638."

    How can this be? I thought that the Grail was not approved for use in the United States?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I use this book, it's my understanding that the gender-neutrality was removed from the texts to make it acceptable. Or something like that. At any rate, my pastor, who should know, has never objected to their usage.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    GIA is the sole American agent for the Psalm translation originally produced by The Grail in England. A special feature of this psalm translation is the roughly even number of major pulses per line, aka “sprung meter”.

    The original 1963 version of that translation is the psalm translation used in the current English translation of the Liturgy of the Hours. For that reason, it has always enjoyed at least an “implicit” approval for use in responsorial psalms at Mass, because it’s nonsensical to approve a translation for one part of the liturgy but to forbid it for another.

    The 1963 version of the translation predates issues of gender neutering. Psalm 1 is “Happy the man...”, etc. Later versions incorporated it, but they haven’t gained approval.

    The “1987, 1998” refers to editions of the Grail/Gelineau Lectionary Psalter, which GIA publishes.
  • Felipe,

    I agree with you totally in principle, but the problem is Sacrosanctum Concilium, which specifically says:

    "3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority."

    It does not say, "Unless one can find a similar text in the office and adds that translation as a valid option."
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Using the Gelineau psalms is not adding to or changing the liturgy. GIRM 61 permts the use of other approved collections of psalms:

    In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the
    Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm
    from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another
    musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons,
    including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the
    United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not
    be used in place of the responsorial Psalm.
  • Dear Incantu,

    But that is just it! We are waiting for the Bishops to approve different versions of the Psalms for Mass (at the Responsorial Psalm), but they have not.

    For example, the Douay Rheims was published with Ecclesiastical permission, but it is not approved for Mass.

    I would love to use the Douay Rheims translation but it (like the Grail) doesn't meet the criterion:

    "an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons,
    including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the
    United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop."

    The Douay Rheims is approved by the Bishops and the Church. But it is not approved for Mass in the United States.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Dear Jules,

    Looking at it another way, there is no way GIA could not get in trouble if they issued a collection of “Lectionary psalms” that was not, in fact, licit for use for that purpose.

    Notice that nothing in any Gather edition tells you to use, say, “Shepherd Me, O God” as the responsorial psalm at Mass. The Grail/Gelineau psalter is explicitly intended for use for that purpose.

    I’m normally as picky as anyone, but here is one case where I am willing to concede “implicit” approval. Douay-Rheims is not approved for any liturgical use, but Grail 1963 is.

    Also, Jules, there are at least two additional collections approved by the U.S. Bishops for use as resp. psalms: Psallite, and By Flowing Waters.
  • I know that the controversy over the approval of By Flowing Waters is discussed elsewhere on this forum, so I don't want to bring it up here.

    If you can show me a statement from the American Bishops that says the translations in the Divine Office can be used interchangeably with the Readings/Psalms at Mass, I would be very interested in seeing that.

    I do have GIA books that recommend that Responsorial psalms be sung (that do not use the Lectionary words).

    What I am trying to find out is if anyone has ever gotten any official permission to use the Grail Psalms at Mass.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    My guess is that no one has explicitly condoned Grail 1963 for resp. psalms at Mass.

    I am content that, were the bishops opposed to their use for this purpose, GIA wouldn’t publish them in that way.

    The kind of consistency and uniformity that many of us know and expect from using computers doesn’t seem to be a strong suit of the USCCB in recent years. The current Lectionary is replete with errors, and even a recent document like “Sing to the Lord” openly contradicts itself.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    It is good to remember that is had been reported that there were numerous amendments proposed to SttL prior to its publication. They were apparently overcome by events. Some of the recommended changes might have been proposed just to clear up some of these problems. Could the CMAA undertake a project to clean it up and perhaps find a bishop willing to dive amongst the sharks for the next conference?
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    "Looking at it another way, there is no way GIA could not get in trouble if they issued a collection of 'Lectionary psalms' that was not, in fact, licit for use for that purpose."

    I don't think that follows at all.
    They have, or at least had, no trouble at all publishing MASSES whose texts are not licit, numerous "psalms" in their psalters use texts credited to and copyrighted by individuals (and that individual is not King David...)

    Save the Liturgy, Save the World
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    G,

    Good point.

    There are, though, lots of Mass settings that don’t use the current ICET/ICEL/whatever text. The presumed purpose for these is to be sung outside the Roman Mass. And, of course, there is no approved (other) liturgical use for this/that deviation from the Gloria text like there is for the Grail psalms.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The instruction I quoted from the GIRM does not say a psalm must be "approved for use at Mass," only that it must be from an approved collection. Some flexibilty is given here for the singing of psalms. For one, on most days we do not have a choice of readings, but we always have at least two choices (often several more) for a psalm text: the psalm from the Lectionary, the gradual from the Roman Gradual, the common psalm from the SImple Gradual, or a seasonal psalm from the Lectionary. There is also the option of a metrical paraphrase of these psalms. Now, a metrical version is never going to be as close to the original text as a literal word for word translation. Notice these are all provision for singing the psalm, not reciting them. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we can read a hymn version of a psalm during the Liturgy of the Word. But when it comes to singing, I don't think we need to look for implicit permission here. We are already given explicit permission to use psalms from an approved collection, and authority to give such approval is granted not just to the conference of bishops but to the diocesan bishop.
  • Again, I wish I could use the Psalm translations from the Douay Rheims, which is an approved translation, but the problem is they are not approved for Mass in the United States.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    This may be of interest, (or indeed, may already have been mentioned here and I missed it.)
    http://adoremus.org/1193-BishopMeetingReport.html

    "FOLLOWING IS A TRANSCRIPTION of audio and videotapes of the U. S. bishops' debate on liturgical revisions recorded at the November 1993 meeting of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops [NCCB] in Washington, D.C. The bishops' discussion concerning the proposed liturgical revisions, and was by far the most lengthy and intense - and surely the most important - during the four-day meeting. The entire NCCB meeting was telecast live by EWTN.

    The sessions transcribed took place on Monday, November 15, and Wednesday, November 17. On Monday, the bishops considered procedures for approving the first segment of the revised Roman Missal (Sacramentary) presented by the Bishops' Committee on the Liturgy [BCL] and prepared by the International Commission on English in the Liturgy [ICEL]; and they opened debate on the Grail Psalter, Inclusive Language Version (by the Ladies of the Grail, England).

    The debate continued on Wednesday, November 17. The bishops agreed on a nine-point procedure which will involve review of the ICEL texts by the Doctrine Committee before they are represented to the bishops by the BCL for vote. Although the new Grail Psalter had already been granted an imprimatur by Archbishop Keeler on the advice of the Administrative Committee, and was used for prayer at this NCCB meeting, it was rejected for liturgical use by the bishops after an absentee ballot failed to secure the necessary two-thirds majority required.

    The debate on the revisions will resume at the June 1994 meeting of the NCCB, where the bishops will review ICEL's theories and principles used in re-translating and revising liturgical texts, including the doctrinal import of so-called "inclusive language". The June meeting will be closed to the press. Such discussions will recur for several years, not only in the United States, but also in the eleven other English-speaking countries, as ICEL proceeds with its extensive revision of all liturgical texts. (ICEL's annual budget is about $700,000.)

    [Women for Faith & Family’s] transcription of the NCCB’s debate on the liturgical texts has been prepared as a service to our bishops, and to those who wish to learn more about the challenges and problems with which our bishops are confronted in the matter of liturgical translations. As concern and confusion about new translations and revisions continues to intensify, readers will be encouraged by the often eloquent and edifying defenses of Catholic liturgical tradition recorded here.

    Minimal editorial notes (in brackets) provide clarification and identify the bishops, listing the principal Conference committees on which they serve, if any. These identifications were current in November, but do not reflect all changes since then (e-g. Bishop Wilton Gregory was succeeded as Chairman of the BCL by Bishop Donald Trautman, and Archbishop John Quinn was elected chairman of the Bishops' Committee on Doctrine). Inaudible words are indicated by ellipses or brackets. Otherwise, the text is unedited, and appears just as spoken by the bishops. "
    More at the link...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I'm still confused. Where does it say "The Douay Rheims translations of the psalms are NOT approved for Mass in the United States"? In the absence of such an explicit statement, then the diocesan bishop has authority to approve their usage, at least according to the GIRM. They do not need to be approved for the entire United States nor explicitly for use at Mass. I expect that the psalm text in the Lectionary will be the only one designated to be read at Mass. If there is a new Lectionary translation, it will likely replace the current one. Otherwise, there will be confusion over which version is to be read. I doubt we will see more than one tanslation designated "for use at Mass" (that is, to appear in the Lectionary and to be read) at any given time. The inclusion of other sung options in the GIRM means that we are not limited to the translation in the Lectionary. And having one Lectionary translation precludes having other collections designated "for use at Mass." You can see how we can run ourselves in circles here. Again, unless an approved translation was specifically forbidden to be used at Mass, singing it, as I understand it, would be licit.
  • Dear Incantu,

    You know what?

    I think I am a complete idiot.

    You are absolutely right. I overlooked something major (in bold below):

    In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the
    Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm
    from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another
    musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons,
    including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the
    United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop .
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Hey, they don't call me "the venerable" for nothing.
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    To my knowledge, the 1963 Grail psalter is still amongst those approved for the Liturgy. It is the 1993 "revised" Grail psalter, which employs so-called 'inclusive language", that is proscribed.
  • Claire H
    Posts: 368
    Friends,

    I would like to know if someone can point to something official (a statement, or web link, etc) on whether or not the 1993 Grail Psalter is liturgically appropriate/approved. I personally find it disturbing that all masculine references to God have been removed and some lines rather significantly rewritten. The Cathedral music director I work with has selected a Psalm 34 setting from GIA for the upcoming First Holy Communion, and I noticed that the verses are from the 1993 Grail (obviously an inclusive language version). I may speak to him about it, but would need to have good sources to point to if this is actually not a legit translation.

    Thanks in advance!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I don't have a direct statement from the Bishops Conference offhand, but this article on the issue of psalm translations (from the lay organization "Adoremus")
    http://www.adoremus.org/1108Psalter.html
    says that the Bishops Committee for the Liturgy rejected that version for liturgical use in November 1993.

    However, it had already been approved for reading, and that permission remains in place.

    Incidentally, such a psalm setting could be used at Mass, but not in place of a responsorial psalm. Whether it's a good idea to use it at some other time, e.g., as a communion song, is another matter.
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    Here is some information to consider:

    This page from GIA says:

    http://www.giamusic.com/sacred_music/RGP/GrailHistory.cfm
    ...when inclusive language became a growing concern within the church, two revisions were undertaken and published in 1983 and 1993. Both revisions were submitted to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops requesting approval for liturgical use; neither received the two-thirds majority vote required for passage. It should be noted, however, that the later version was granted an imprimatur.



    Indeed, this page of the USCCB specifies that "The Grail Psalter (Inclusive Language Version), G.I.A. Publications" is on the list of USCCB Approved Translations of the Sacred Scriptures for Private Use and Study by Catholics. (emphasis added)


    However, GIRM 61 seems to provide a bit of leniency for the text that is used when the Psalm is sung (as opposed to read):

    "The Responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and should usually be taken from the Lectionary" (emphasis added) and then clarifying later, "there may be sung...an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, including Psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop."


    I personally prefer Lectionary or Revised Grail texts, but it is my understanding (based on comments from Msgr. Hilgartner) that Psalm settings of texts other than from the Lectionary or Revised Grail are not illicit for use as the Responsorial Psalm at Mass so long as the Psalms have been approved by the Diocesan Bishop or USCCB.

    If anyone has additional documentation, that would be great.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    There's a lot of leeway with psalms because of all the reasons discussed in this whole thread.

    Also, even if you were to make a cohesive case that the cathedral music director's translation is not allowable, there's always that troublesome line "providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop."

    So ... the music director could probably just walk over to the bishop's office, show him the psalm he intends to use, and say "Bishop, is it ok to use this for First Communion?"

  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    "providing that they have been approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop."


    ...and that statement is a reflection of a much deeper problem with the internal workings of our Church.

    1. What if a bishop doesn't CARE what it used and approves anything? ...or worse, what if the bishop believes heresey and promotes it thus?
    2. What if 'approval' just means a cursory nod of the head? How does this substantiate approval without any written proof or scrutiny of method or results?
    3. How does one have any idea what is 'approved' by who, when, where and how?

    This is not the way the Catholic Church cares for her flock. It is the way of allowing thieves to step in to steal and devour the sheep.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    By Flowing Waters can be used under "et alius cantus aptus." It's closer to the mark than just singing random hymns.

    I favour chanting respobsorial psalms to offuce psalm tones. That way, it is easy to different translations without changing the music.

    At the end of the day I just want the music and words to use at mass so I can get on with the job of being a church musician.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • Douai-Rheims is out, but could one use the Coverdale? It is, now, quite Catholic and is the official liturgical psalter of the Anglican Ordinariate. I'm asking honestly, can licit texts such as these cross from one rite or use to another legitimately?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I would not consider that the permission for Coverdale in Anglican Use parishes is enough to make it a permitted option for Roman rite use generally. I'm assuming that the episcopal conference never gave it the same general approval for liturgical use that the current Lectionary, or the 1963 Grail, or the RGP got. (Or the Jerusalem Bible and the old RSV, back in the day.)
  • That's what I sort of thought.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    No DR, no Cov'dale, no KJV neither.
    No Latin (no ruling: no need, no desire).
    No worship? - no wonder. No wonder to speak of.
    No lexical love, no linguistical fire.