• Dear musicians I've been reading about the trintone and it has been called diabolus in musica. What do you do of such statement? I guess you would never find organ music for church with tritones in it, am I right?
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    It's an overtone thing.
  • Actually there's lots of organ music with tritones. If you've got a major seventh chord, you've got a tritone. It also has to do with the tritone being a difficult interval to sing.
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    The popular reception of Western art music wasn't comfortable with the tritone until West Side Story (MAR-I-a).
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • so you actually use the tritone in the Liturgy?
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    Well, I've been known to use a whole tone scale, which effectively includes one (1st note to 4th). It's not divorced from chant: it's the first four notes of the Lydian mode.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    What musical genres are you comfortable with in the Liturgy, HH?
  • Church music (with organ) I guess would be, at least for me, organ accompaniment for chants, Bach or Duruflé...I was not thinking of Hillsong (that's btw not even organ music).
  • Bach and Durufle have tritones in their music.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The Wikipedia article on Tritone explains the saying; it seems to be somewhat mythical:

    The tritone is a restless interval, classed as a dissonance in Western music from the early Middle Ages through to the end of the common practice period. This interval was frequently avoided in medieval ecclesiastical singing because of its dissonant quality. The first explicit prohibition of it seems to occur with the development of Guido of Arezzo's hexachordal system


    The name diabolus in musica ("the Devil in music") has been applied to the interval from at least the early 18th century. Johann Joseph Fux cites the phrase in his seminal 1725 work Gradus ad Parnassum, Georg Philipp Telemann in 1733 describes, "mi against fa", which the ancients called "Satan in music", and Johann Mattheson in 1739 writes that the "older singers with solmization called this pleasant interval 'mi contra fa' or 'the devil in music'".[20] Although the latter two of these authors cite the association with the devil as from the past, there are no known citations of this term from the Middle Ages, as is commonly asserted.[21] However Denis Arnold, in the New Oxford Companion to Music, suggests that the nickname was already applied early in the medieval music itself:

    It seems first to have been designated as a "dangerous" interval when Guido of Arezzo developed his system of hexachords and with the introduction of B flat as a diatonic note, at much the same time acquiring its nickname of "Diabolus in Musica" ("the devil in music").[22]


    Because of that original symbolic association with the devil and its avoidance, this interval came to be heard in Western cultural convention as suggesting an "evil" connotative meaning in music. Today the interval continues to suggest an "oppressive", "scary", or "evil" sound. However, suggestions that singers were excommunicated or otherwise punished by the Church for invoking this interval are likely fanciful.


  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    Today, there are not any dissonances left that we haven't heard. I have read that Beethoven's piano improvisations could reduce audiences to tears, and Liszt's would cause swooning women throughout the concert hall. Hard to imagine, isn't it?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Dissonance isn't always a bad thing. I often insert dissoance quickly followed by a resolution to create some music interest such as playing the 4th then 2nd before resolving to a major chord when playing the old Picardy Third.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    It is interesting that to modern ears, it is modal music that often sounds dissonant. These same folks would think nothing of clashing, crashing discord in other music.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Listen to Wagner for four hours straight and call me in the morning. You won't give a rip about the tri-tone ever again. This thread is....I dunno.....pedantic....sophistry....gnostic....you name it.

    [If you're not interested in a topic, there's no need to criticize it. Live and let live, hm? --admin]

    RC, I thought we were all about free speech around here, even for me, yes? I didn't denigrate any person. My advice was, despite its levity, useful. Listening to Wagner sonically debunk the tri-tone/dominant seventh instability by successive uses of it as a tonic is serious musicology. If the MSF PTB don't want certain individuals to contribute here, they have ways of mitigating that. But I don't think it's cricket to pick on my pithiness while encouraging others'. YMMV.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    Love Wagner, with 300-pound sopranos in Viking helmets, swan boats, and all the other delicious excess that goes with him.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I am sure much of the 'devil in music' idea comes from early vocal music, and just plain practicality.

    Harmonically it can be a challenge for two people to sing a tritone in tune; at least from what I've seen/heard/done, most people almost subconsciously try to sharpen the fifth to make it perfect - thus why musica ficta happens; Melodic tritones can also be difficult to sing, particularly descending - devilishly difficult, you could say.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Harmonically it can be a challenge for two people to sing a tritone in tune

    Harmonically, it can be a challenge to define what it means for two people to sing a tritone in tune.
    Thanked by 2Salieri Adam Wood
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    There is also within the early tuning systems - quarter-comma meantone in particular - an element known as the "wolf" or "wolf tone" which was considered aesthetically very unpleasant. It is why they developed instruments with split sharp keys. These were literally divided sharp keys, split across the key, with the front half sounding the more commonly-used pitch while the back half sounded the less-used pitch.

    If you ever have an opportunity to see and play an historic instrument or a replica that employs this system, it's worth the experience.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Earl_Grey
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm liking this thread more and more!
    And speaking of David's "wolf tone" I'm reminded that Paul Winter and his Consort, which is to say his musical ensemble that includes the great Paul Halley and Eugene Friesen (and not the more vulgar meaning of "consort"), begin the magnum opus "Missa Gaia" with a musica concrete example of a wolf howling a tri-tone that becomes the motif for the Kyrie! And IIRC, it's a descending tri-tone to boot. The effect is chilling! And, of course, the way Winter/Halley then construct layers of melody, then harmony, rhythm and form around that wolf recording naturally remind the listener of the whole notion of music of the spheres, all is well in the cosmos!
    I wish I had the musical forces to replicate "Missa Gaia" at every Mass. We're not as large as St. John the Divine in NYC, but I could even envision a large aquarium containing an orca or another whale species so their extraordinary aural utterances could grace those of the choir and ensemble during the Sanctus; an obvious correlation to choirs and angels and saints and "let all things now living."
    But alas, I don't even have the forces for the Jacob Bancks' Mass (gotta send that perusal back!) so I will settle for the five notes in Mass XV Glory, which does, thankfully imply a tri-tone via the F at the "amen." Ah, that was great!
    PS. We occasionally imitate the Tallis cross-related major/minor third technique when one of my tenors is inspired to sing a picardy third when he's especially happy.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Don't forget the traditional association of a melodic Tritone with the Blessed Mother.

    MA-RI- A!

    (Say it soft, and it's almost like praying.)