When the pastor drives away the singers...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    When I was in early college, as a theatre major planning to become a theatre teacher - I spent some time working with a local Catholic HS's after-school drama program. The student-director of one little one-act asked me if I could do some scene work and acting coaching. The kids were bad actors, let me say- and they were doing typically bad repertoire. The student director told me that they really needed my help and that "I could be as mean as I needed to be."

    "Ah!" I said. "There's your problem."

    You can't push people into being better artists. You can't be stingy with praise.

    Perhaps, MT56, our modern "self-esteem" culture has soured your appetite for confidence-building. I can understand that. But meaningless compliments and no compliments are not the only options.

    You have to build people up, recognize the good work they are doing. How is someone to know they are on the right track if they aren't praised for it?

    MT56- I don't know what your experience is or how many choirs you have conducted. But you sound like it has not been that many, and not successfully. The people here - who are advising a different approach - they know what they are talking about.

    And that defensive feeling you are experiencing right now when people try to correct what you are doing? That feeling that makes you want to argue and then go away? That's how your choir feels. That's why you don't have more people.
    Thanked by 2SkirpR bhcordova
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Also:

    People are pretty much the same everywhere.
    It's leadership that makes a difference.
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Just because you felt the need to kick some ass does not then cause propers and traditional hymnody to be sung.

    Noel, that is one of the coolest and true maxims you've laid out over these many years here. If RC were to boot you for that, I'd be on a plane to DC.
    PGA, thank the Lord I've gotten your satire, otherwise The Wrath of Khan would've.....
    Gee whiz, I feel like we're through the looking glass here.

    From the Scot's tenor to the Irish Tenor, this thread has gone beyond the opposite of common sense, and well into the Looking Glass. I'm going to make this Bill O'Reilly pithy, if you don't possess the faculties to take your singers where your ear wants to go, presumably to honor God and edify His Faithful, then don't place that onus upon your volunteers or your hired guns. You're in charge, make the right call at the outset because you know you can, and God is with you without exception or compromise.
    I see that pretty much all I have to further say would be redundant, so as the Marines order: "Lead. Follow. Or get out of the way."
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    If RC were to boot you for that, I'd be on a plane to DC.

    Whew! Good thing I don't live there! :-)

    But anyway, this last bit about choir-directors and singers has been a bit of a digression from the Original Poster's question about pastors. Anybody got anything more on that topic?
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Thank you, Chonak. This forum is for everyone and everybody's situation is different. To highjack a thread to be critical of one particular member is to the detriment of all. God bless.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    We're not being critical of any particular member, we're being critical of a philosophy/policy/idea.

    As for the original poster's problem - the director needs to talk to the pastor, the pastor should probably talk to the director before 'helping' the choir, the director should probably find another place to rehearse (outdoors, a stairwell, the parish kitchen, etc), and remember to regularly smile and tell folks they're doing a good job (especially when that is true).
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood irishtenor
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    I have not been unfortunate enough to witness a pastor reprimanding the Schola, but I have seen destructive criticism leveled at people in many ministries. I have found that it is better if criticism is brought to me rather than to the singers. It is my job to correct them and I am responsible for their output. I would suggest that a conversation with the pastor would be helpful if he is open to working with you to build the choir.

    In my experience, the pastor places his trust in me to train the singers and to motivate them. If there is a problem, it can be addressed to me. I am happy to accept any criticism. It's part of the job. As musicians, we all accept the possibility that our music won't be appreciated, but we chose this ministry and so we develop a thick skin. It is also important to protect the singers, to the extent possible, from negative influence. As a result, I would ask the pastor to address his praise (if any) to the singers, and his concerns to me.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Bumping up this thread to give an update. Since September, I have approached my choir in many different ways. I went the entire gamut of being a dictator giving out little compliments and expecting much, to being a softer, more loving servant leader addressing the individual personalities in my choir and being open and loving to any and all suggestions for improvement. It has gotten me nowhere. The choir continues to be difficult, doesn't listen to any direction and the amount of absences on a regular basis continues to be cause for concern. We have not been able to work on any new music (other than Christmas, and even then it wasn't until our last rehearsal when the final decision was made as to what music to do because, again, of absences).

    My point is, of course, that sometimes, and with some people, you can't always catch more bees with honey. People are people and the level of commitment and dedication seems to change with different geographical areas. When the director is guided by the pastor and the pastor refuses to see the people for who they are that the trouble begins. I am finally at peace with a lot of my decisions. They haven't been easy, but I'm healthier and happier. If my singers cannot meet the level of commitment that is necessary, then they have to realize that perhaps music ministry is not for them. All the honey in the world will not satisfy some people who refuse to realize the true meaning of commitment.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Is it possible you could form a "second choir" out of the more committed members and divide up the Sundays?
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Musicteacher56, I know exactly how you feel. When I first accepted my current post some twenty years ago, I inherited a group of uncommitted singers who had no discipline or love for the ministry of music. After evaluating them and being unhappy with the results, I finally had to get rid of them all and create a new group of singers. I told the pastor that the praise we offer through music was important enough that I would rather do it alone than to do it half steps. Thankfully, he supported me. Twenty years later, the singers are committed and hungry for more authentically Catholic music. It takes guts to draw a line in the sand, but if your pastor is behind you, you can do it.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Music teacher56, having been in your situation, I would decide who the singers are that really want to sing, and build the choir around them. The people who don't show, I would make sure to talk to each of those people individually and let them know that singing in a choir is a privilege, not a right, and that they have x amount of time to reform or they will not be welcome.
    What will happen, is that you will have a smaller group, but with more committed people, who are willing to work. When you raise that choir to the level that is higher, it will attract more competent people. Just my .02
  • jcr
    Posts: 132
    Paid singers in an otherwise volunteer choir can be blessing, curse, and both at the same time. Having spent several years as a paid soloist/section leader in a large protestant church and as a choirmaster in a number of protestant and Catholic churches, I have noticed a couple of things.
    1. You can learn music very much faster and at a higher level
    2. You may lose any singers with solo abilities as their opportunities to solo vanish
    with the retention of the pros.
    It is difficult to work out what the attitudes of existing choir members will be and it is equally difficult to predict the reactions of the more able singers in an existing choir. I'm not sure what I think about it, but would have to weigh it carefully before instituting a paid quartet or more in my present situation.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Having the pros do sectionals each week when they arrive, including some simple voice training for the section and continuing to use non-paid singers to sing solos and special parts - and with the pros at times - heals all wounds.
  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Ah, yes... I had a pastor who really astounded me at times. Very intelligent, but not really a people person (probably the most politically correct way I can phrase that!).

    He wanted to encourage men, in particular, to join the group - it was a standing part of the bulletin and he would periodically mention it. After several years of 3-4 men (including me) and 12-18 women, we finally started to get some traction and there were several, including 2-3 altar boys who joined the choir. Obviously, they couldn't sing with us when they were scheduled to serve, but they made rehearsals and sang for the Masses they weren't serving.

    One day the pastor happened into the loft during rehearsal, and on seeing one of the altar boys (11-12 at the time), made several cutting comments about how boys belong in the sanctuary and essentially equating being in the choir to something effeminate.

    Not surprisingly, the young boy quit the choir not long after. The choir (I've left for another position since) still has a very disproportionate ratio, but at least there is a new pastor and I hear they are starting to add some boys / men.

    The same priest also tried to do something to me in a similar way by making loud comments in the sacristy before a vespers about how my surplice looked like lingerie because it was lace.

    Sometimes, we accomplish what we accomplish despite rather than because of the "assistance" of those who are supposed to support us in our role.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696

    The same priest also tried to do something to me in a similar way by making loud comments in the sacristy before a vespers about how my surplice looked like lingerie because it was lace.


    Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    There's got to be a [Tomas Luis de] Victoria's Secret joke in there somewhere. O Magnum Mysterium indeed.