Organists as Vocal Leaders?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I don't know any of them. There are many times I could play, but don't. The Mass needs some silence. I think that is one thing missing far too often in the OF. Now those divas in the choir loft, however, often seem to think they should fill every moment with sound. (Purple, purple, purple script...)
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    The Mass needs some silence.


    Amen and amen.
    Thanked by 4Ben ClergetKubisz CHGiffen kenstb
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    We don't have music during the ablutions unless the choir is present, per Fathers request.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    chant Puritans have come up with the idea that chant and polyphony can only be sung unaccompanied. Interesting, since it hasn't been sung that way for centuries in the western Church
    .

    Unnnhhhh...really? I recall a capella Chant and polyphony (motets and Mass Ordinaries) being sung in US Catholic churches for Sunday Mass as long as 60 years ago. Not cathedrals, just regular parishes.

    Are you saying that 'the vast majority' of choirs sing such music using accompaniment? Or some bare majority? Or a sizeable minority?

    Clarify, please!

  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I also don't think that accompanying chant/polyphony is the IDEAL - nor the intention of the music.

    It's been done widely over the centuries as needed - but is it really INTENDED to be sung with accompaniment?
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    That's the key, isn't it Charles? It depends on the composition. The thing that bugs me is some of the chant Puritans have come up with the idea that chant and polyphony can only be sung unaccompanied. Interesting, since it hasn't been sung that way for centuries in the western Church.
    Healey Willan had two choirs: the Ritual Choir (all male) chanted the propers of the Mass, had their pews in the sanctuary just below the organ pipes, and were almost always accompanied by the organ. The Gallery Choir (men and women) sang parts of the choral Ordinary of the Mass, the motets and anthems, and sat in the west gallery (choir loft) and were almost never accompanied. At Solemn Evensong they often did his arrangement of a Tone VIIIg Magnificat rotating verses between the accompanied Ritual Choir, the congregation (chanting, accompanied), and the Gallery Choir (singing in fauxbourdon, unaccompanied).
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    "It's been done widely over the centuries as needed - but is it really INTENDED to be sung with accompaniment?"

    If it's meant to be sung well-tempered, perhaps.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Unfortunately, we can't really go back in time and ask those earlier musicians why they did not conform to every modern practice of today. Maybe they didn't know as much, or were not as enlightened as today's musicians - ya think?

    I have heard chant and polyphony both accompanied and unaccompanied for many years. The accompaniment works well for some pieces, not so much for others. It depends. It is when I encounter one of those musicians who says chant and polyphony can never be accompanied, that I immediately dismiss them as nutty extremists.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    it is when I encounter one of those musicians who says chant and polyphony can never be accompanied,


    Does anyone really ever say this?

    I mean really.
    Not just that it's better, or preferred, or ideal to sing it unaccompanied- but does anyone really ever say- NEVER, YOU CAN'T DO IT!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Unfortunately, Adam, yes they do. In some ways, chant can defy description. It seems to blend and adapt to every age. As best I can tell, chant was alive and well in 19th century France, but had a definite Romantic character. A century earlier, it would have had a more classical flavor. In every age, chant and polyphony have likely sounded different, and reflected current musical trends and practices. Now I see that as a good thing. That means it was not a dead medium and had some life in it. Some today want to take that life and flexibility out of it and make it into a museum piece.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 944
    The earliest chanters didn't use an organ because they didn't exist yet. It's tough to hold an "intention" to that fact. I don't accompany chant with a snarfblat because that instrument doesn't exist outside of Disney movies (can you tell I have little girls?).

    Is it intended to be accompanied? That depends on who you ask. Surely the people who wrote the accompaniments intended to use them. Chant isn't a monolithic force. Since it is anonymously written music that belongs to the Church, there's quite a bit of freedom here.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Yes, there is quite a bit of freedom. Without that freedom, it might just lessen the survival of that music.

    To add something, without creating a new post. Quite a bit of craziness I have heard is from musicians who have attended a weekend - if that long - chant workshop somewhere. I have come to the conclusion that there are some out there teaching chant who perhaps need to learn a bit more themselves, before trying to teach anyone else.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    MatthewJ said

    Having just yourself guarentees that you are all on the same page (unless you have extreme personal problems).

    OK...

    I am definitely always feeling tension between my distinct roles (personalitites). The composer is always placing extreme demands on the organist, so the composer is forced to work within the organists performing limitations (idiomatica) and time constraints since the organist only works 1/4 of the time. The arranger works well with the composer, but the composer always wants to write for larger (and more capable) ensembles, so the arranger is always trying to simplify the composer's efforts. The music director is always in trouble with all of the others because he keeps on downplaying polyphony and chant because of pressure from above to include OEW, BNA, AG, HIAL, HGTA.(actually, its not "above" that is screwed up, its the middle man).
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Ah, The Picture of Dorian Francis! Too much work, so let the picture age from all the stress, instead of yourself. LOL. It all sounds like too much for one person.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Charles

    Oh, but then I wouldn't get to argue out the best composition/arrangement amongst myselves! We each have a drink over the conversation, and I enjoy it very much! It helps to appreciate each person(ality's) perspective, (and varying tastes in drinks.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    ROFL!
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Regarding accompanying the chant: if you have the "Dagwood sandwich" at the choir Mass as we do (hymns+propers), there can be a problem. To those who aren't really comfortable with the spiritually or aesthetic of the chant, following a big entrance hymn with a melismatic Mode III proper can be a little confusing...so, to counterbalance that, I will often accompany said introit. Yes, you lose the modality, yes, it isn't as aesthetically pleasing to those who really love chant. However, liturgical music isn't a zero-sum game, and I always like to look forward to living to fight another day!
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Ben
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Being that my training was in orchestral music (I'm a clarinetist), conducting was part of my training, so as a DM, that aspect isn't a problem for me, but for the same exact reason, the leadership of the choir is at times. In both of my positions (I teach at a Catholic school as well), I do a lot of organ playing and singing instruction, yet I myself have not had official instruction in either. Any help anyone can throw my way on this would be substantial. Oh, and I apologize if this was a very old thread that I have brought back: I was searching for vocal pedagogy help.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    There is a recording of dr. Cecilia Nam at the last colloquium I found to be helpful. http://music.dierschow.com/2013Colloquium/20Thu/130620 Cecilia Nam.mp3
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Very informative, thank you so much!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I accompany chant quite often. It supports the singing. Unless necessary, I do not accompany chant during lent.

    Congregational chant eg the Pater Noster and Adoro Te Devote is accompanied most of the time to stop it from dragging on.
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