Victoria Motets
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    Hey, there:

    I am looking for something to study, particularly Victoria. For those of you who have studied that era, what are the (1) most educationally useful motets, and (2) the most beautiful. Also, if I had to study one Mass, which one would it be.

    I certainly KNOW that there is a vast sea of compositions there. I am looking for the handful that would be best to know in detail.

    Thanks.

    Kenneth
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Victoria... that era,

    I'm sorry...
    do you mean the composer Victoria, or the era called "Victorian"?
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Shh! It's secret, although Victoria doesn't have any secrets. ;-)
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    I guess I should have proofread that one, although part of me wants to go, "Really? On this list?" I meant "Tomas Luis de" and HIS era. And yes, before someone says it, I know that he did not write anywhere near as much as Lassus, but it's still a lot and I am looking for focus.

    As for the secrets joke...well, this is a religious list. OK THAT WAS A JOKE.

    Cheers. Kenneth
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Quite partial to "O magnum mysterium."
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    "HIS era" could possibly be the entire Renaissance era. That is too sweeping. Here are five Victoria choices (two are collections) that represent the best of Victoria himself:

    Victoria: Ave Maria a 8 (not the misattributed 4-part setting, which is actually by Jacobus Gallus/Jacob Handl). This is a motet well worth study and is stunningly beautiful when performed.

    Victoria: O magnum mysterium. This is probably the most famous and most often sung motet actually by Victoria.

    Victoria: Lamentations of Jeremiah.

    Victoria: Tenebrae Responsories.

    Victoria: Officium defunctorum a 6 (a.k.a. the Victoria Requiem). This is a true masterpiece of music writing and devotional sensitivity.

    A few other favorites from the immediate era (most are not for the faint of heart, but well worth study, as requested):

    Mouton: Nesciens mater virgo virum a 8. A compositional and contrapuntal masterpiece, glorious to hear and even more glorious to sing. Eight parts, in a quadruple canon at the fifth.

    Gombert: Lugebat David Absalon a 8

    Josquin: Praeter rerum serium a 8

    Josquin: Ave Maria ... Virgo serena a 4. Arguably Josquin's most famous and finest motet, which set the standard for Renaissance motet writing.

    Tallis: Gaude glorioa Dei Mater a 6

    Taverner: Missa Gloria tibi Trinitas a 6

    Browne: O Maria salvatoris Mater a 8. The first work in the Eton Choirbook.
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  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    I see in Grove that his whole Holy Week cycle is considered both quite successful and very indicative, and it is all short works that can be studied more easily--although apparently almost all in chordal or familiar style, so not broadly representative. O Magnum Mysterium seems to be a mix of styles, so that's helpful!

    Kenenth
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    And Missa O magnum mysterium which is, relatively speaking, not that difficult.

    Also, Michael Haller's Missa Prima (SAB) might be a good one to begin with.
    It's available on on CPDL.

    We are learning this without organ accompaniment. My only concern is that there are only two Kyrie eleisons in each voice part. In the EF, there are supposed to be three Kyrie, three Christe and three Kyrie, for a total of nine invocations.

    Does anyone know if it would be liturgically correct to sing this in the EF? I've attached it below. (I sure hope so, since it is quite beautiful.)
    HallPrima1Kyrie.pdf
    242K
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  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    I see that even an English teacher such as myself needs to have his coffee. Read cold after several hours, I see that my request was ambiguous. I meant this one composer in particular.

    Ah, well. I can use my own writing as an example in class of needless ambiguity.

    Kenneth
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    But the single motets from others are helpful. Obviously, I could start in the morning and just keep downloading all day from CPDL. A small list like this is most helpful.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I could start in the morning and just keep downloading all day from CPDL


    Occupational hazard. I've lost many days this way....
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Don't forget O quam gloriosum!
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Occupational hazard. I've lost many days this way....


    As have I. :)

    I would also recommend Victoria's Ave Maria. It is my dream to have a choir large enough to sing it at some point.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    " I can use my own writing as an example in class of needless ambiguity."

    Ah, but it's so much more fun when the ambiguity is deliberate, as in the Star Trek episode when Mr. Spock says, "I shall give it all the attention it deserves.", or any number of lines from Oscar Wilde plays. Where would the English language be without such intentional ambiguity? Imagine Gilbert and Sullivan without a pirate, or a Shakespearean comedy without "and I shall marry no man." --- or, .... the list is endless.

    Ok, so this is somewhat off topic, but what great fun!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I promise I wasn't trying to make anything out of your ambiguity. I just was trying to be helpful and make sure you got the information you were seeking.
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  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Nobody has mentioned yet the Victoria piece which means the most to me, namely the motet Jesu dulcis memoria.
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  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    O Quam Gloriosum. There is a very goodass and motet by that name. Love both of them. Victoria gets very dark at times. Palestrina is lighter and more airy. Palestrina's O Beata Trinitas sounds like he had had one too many prozac.
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  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    And I was just having fun at myself in reply. No offense taken and none give, I hope, Adam. You always have good advice.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    Your comment about Victoria getting dark is very indicative, because apparently he had a reputation for being kind of upbeat and optimistic, FOR A SPANIARD. St. John of the Cross didn't come out of nowhere. Teresa of Avila is more the sport, for that culture. I had a bunch of Brazilians as students this last year and was reminded they have a word for it: saodade. Brazilians pronounce the last "de" as "jeh," or close to that. It means exactly the Iberian melancholy. I asked one kid why he seemed down, and he said it was just normal. Of course, then I figured out he was also in love, and told him during grade conferences what I suspected and said that that was one of the things you need to learn to balance as you grow up. He just smiled.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    And, of course, the reality is, given his very focused career and the high percentage of great pieces, that the response to the question, "What should I study?" could quite fairly be "all of it." I more or less got that attitude from a very successful Oboe player I met casually. She said in reply to something I talked about, 'There you go. You should know Bach."
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Um, Harley, did you mean "good mass"?

    Glad R.J. Stove mentioned Jesu Dulcis. Truly sublime. We sing a verse of the Gregorian chant version and then go into the Victoria and end with the last verse of the Gregorian chant version.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Um, Harley, did you mean "good mass"?


    Maybe that's an Australian term of approbation.
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  • Unda_Maris
    Posts: 53
    Kenneth,

    I'll throw my favorite Vittoria mass and motet into the ring as well the other fine suggestions given: "Missa Quarti Toni" (SATB) and "O Vos Omnes" (arr. for both SSA and SATB voices). In this dark motet, Vittoria has captured the scene of the Blessed Virgin at the foot of the cross of her dying son, saying: "All ye who pass by, look and see. Is their any grief like my grief that was inflicted on me, that the Lord brought on me, in the day of his fierce anger?"

    The Missa Quarti Toni is typically one of Vittoria's lyrical mass settings. The Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei are particularly beautiful. But if one is a fan of Vittoria's choral writing, it's difficult to chose merely one mass and one motet from his library of stellar compositions. Difficult to choose, but these are my favorites.
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  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    I nominate both the motet and mass O magnum mysterium (mostly 4-part but there is a 5th voice in the Agnus). Also, no one has mentioned a stunningly beautiful motet that is appropriate at any mass - his 4-voice Domine non sum dignus. This is one of my favorite motets and should be in everyone's repertoire - to my mind it contains more "meaty" writing (don't know what other adjective to use here, sorry!) than some of the things mentioned above, and it's not hard! That's a difficult feat to accomplish, although Victoria seems to do it more often than a lot of others.
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