A Text for Discussion
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    In another thread, Fr. Krisman provided the following text which appears in Worship IV. I would like to discuss its merits and shortcomings, not with any bad faith, but as an exercise that will hopefully bear fruit in dialogue.

    Below is the Sylvia Dunstan text to which Mark Thompson refers. It is no. 679 in W4, under the "faith" section, but also selected as one of two possible "hymns of the day" - the other being Alford's "We Walk by Faith" - for the Second Sunday of Easter A, B, C.

    Show me your hands, your feet, your side;
    I will not be deceived.
    Unless I see, how can I trust
    The news that I’ve received?

    “Fear not! Let peace be in your soul.
    Reach out and touch and know
    I died and yet I am alive
    With wounds that ever show.”

    Not even Easter takes away
    The marks that Jesus bears.
    The risen Christ still wears the wounds
    Of scourge and nail and spear.

    So blessed are those who have not seen
    Yet cry, "My Lord and God!"
    Who touch earth's pain in Jesus' name
    And tell good news abroad.

    Text: Sylvia G. Dunstan, 1955-1993, © 1991, GIA Publications, Inc.
    All rights reserved. Reprinted with permission of GIA Publications.
    Tune: LAND OF REST
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    I don't know why I would even consider it when I have this.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Again, Kathy zeroes in on worthwhile point of debate. That would be artistic need.
    And that consideration doesn't only extend to texts but also to music, but I shall leave my commentary to text.
    It seems to me, every 2nd Sunday Eastertide, that all that allusionary poetic text needs to amplify the profundity of the gospel already is to be found in the various translations of O FILII....and ADORO TE. There being only certain moments in each Mass that we are called to vocally affirm the day celebrated, that we DMs are called to discern whether new compositions, new texts, new melodies have sufficient merit to warrant displacing of that which is well established by eras of usage and tradition. There has to be some measure of doubt as to whether what has been carried forth in the repertoire merits such augmentation to those which remain. Augmentation or replacement cannot be justified by "newness" or " fresh perspective" or even by clever craft and hooks of musical setting.
    Again, I think there is plenty good room for music/texts that in some specific way augment the psalms in a visceral, primary way, or otherwise illuminate the New Testament texts that prosaically amplify the incarnational import of Christ in cosmology now and from the past.
    But we have a dearth of resources. This is why W4 or VII or Breaking Bread indices must be thoroughly vetted.
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Does it matter that the text changes the Thomas story? In Dunstan's version, Thomas expresses his doubts right to Jesus' face: for him, even seeing isn't enough.

    In the gospel account, the apostle expressed his doubts only when Jesus was not before his eyes, and his doubts departed the moment he saw the risen Lord.

    Let's see if we can improve on Dunstan's work:

    When Thomas saw the risen Lord
    he knelt down to adore
    Then Jesus said, Don't touch earth's pain,
    It only makes it sore.

    Hm. No, that won't do.
    Thanked by 3MarkThompson MHI Kathy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,480
    all that allusionary poetic text needs to amplify the profundity of the gospel already is to be found in the various translations of O FILII....and ADORO TE.


    This.

    Plus, if you're into it, "We Walk By Faith" (The 1982 has something more dignified if you're not in the mood for SHANTI)
    And if you're a folky, there's "Without Seeing You" by Haas.

    The text in question here is very so-so. It's not terrible, but it falls well below the "so what?" test. Had I written it, I would have decided not to write it.

    I'm all for new things, but I'm of the opinion that energy (and print space) should be used on filling out gaps in the available repertoire. We don't need any new Christmas carols. We don't need any new arrangements of Jesus Christ is Risen Today. We don't need any mediocre Second Sunday of Easter hymns.

    That isn't to say we wouldn't all appreciate particularly inspired manifestations of any of those. Just that we are not so much in need that it is worth anyone's time to WORK on it. The Holy Spirit dropping something on you is a whole other story.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • Adam, I love your "so what" test. Gets to the heart of things, especially when a profusion of "so what" attempts to eclipse beloved and inspired treasures in any given repertoire.

    I also agree with Mark's observations on the last stanza. That's the part that stood out to me.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Come to think of it, the words
    who touch earth's pain

    are not very singable.

    Just look at this cluster in IPA notation: [tʃɚɵsp] ("-ch earth's p-")

    It's a real tongue-twister, with the [tʃ] followed by the [ɵ], and the [ɵ] followed by [s]. Can't say it five times fast!

  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    FYI - from Hymnary.com

    Sylvia Dunstan

    Born in 1955, Sylvia Dunstan attributes her love of song to her grandparents, who kept song alive in the family and entrusted Sylvia's formal musical education to one of the nuns at the local convent. Sylvia began writing songs in the early seventies and soon after met Sister Miriam Theresa Winter, who encouraged her to write songs based on Scripture. Sylvia eventually realized that her talents did not lay with the music and concentrated instead on the lyrics. She was further shepherded and encouraged by Alan Barthel.

    Her bachelor degree was earned from York University, and she received graduate degrees in theology and divinity from Emmanuel College, Toronto. In 1980, she was ordained by the Hamilton Conference of the United Church of Canada. During her career she served as a minister, a prison chaplain, and editor of a Canadian worship resource journal, Gathering.

    In the summer of 1990 she was invited to lead the annual conference of the Hymn Society in the U.S. and Canada in a session exploring her hymnody. That exposure led to the publication of In Search of Hope and Grace. A smaller collection Where the Promise Shines was published after her death in 1994. Many of her hymn texts have been set by contemporary composers.

    Sylvia Dunstan died on July 25, 1993, almost four months after being diagnosed with liver cancer. She left behind a ministry that combined a compassionate concern for the needy and distraught with a consuming love of liturgy.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,480
    How was Adam's comment above ad rem to this text?


    I stated my opinion that the text fails my personal "so what" test, and that it is - while not terrible - terribly mediocre. Seems relevant to me.

    I would offer that perhaps SD's bio is not relevant in that her credentials do not have any direct impact on the quality of the text. (Rather, the other way 'round. - That is, the Mona Lisa is not great art BECAUSE da Vinci was a great artist. Rather, he is considered a great artist BECAUSE the works he created are great art.)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Once I was writing this hymn about the Wedding Feast at Cana. It included some ideas that I'm pretty sure were true, and interesting, and in places the hymn worked. But overall it didn't work, and I couldn't find a way to fix it. So I just abandoned it. I do that a lot, with lines of hymns, too. There's just no reason to add to the history of hymnody unless you're going to do it very, very well.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    So, getting back to this hymn's mediocrity...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    What do you think of the rhymes in Dunstan's text? There are sixteen lines of text, and just two authentic rhymes.

    I don't mind the approximate rhyme of "God/abroad" in verse four, but verse three has "bears/spear". This isn't really considered a rhyme, is it? Or is there a trend in which unrhymed poetry is accepted for hymn writing?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Slap! Thank you, ma'am.
    Still contending that my "so what" standard is identical to Adam's, (and which I apply even more stringently to Latin texts!) I do have one observation:
    It seems that verse one tries too hard to amplify the subtle indictment of Didymus found in the Hopkin's reference in ADORO TE. It over-personalizes the apostle's incredulity, and thus the encounter seems a bit of caricature. Thomas as the bad thief, challenging Christ, as it were. Thomas was a practical fellow elsewhere. "Lord, how can we follow you, we don't know the way?" Using "fear" as Thomas' provocation seems a bit presumptive. The rest of the stanzas, a mini-catechism, doxology...whatever.
    Another issue is the brevity of this hymn and in what liturgical moment might it best be employed that would supplant O FILII or ADORO TE...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    (admin note:) I hope readers don't mind if I take out some digression comments.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Digression remark: Is my prose more accessible of late, RC?
    [I dunno; I'll check.--RC]
    Ack, I just noticed the post # count.
    "Silence unclean, frenzied spirit!"
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Although the text is certainly based on the Thomas story in John 20, I fail to see it as a mere retelling of that story. "Thomas" is not mentioned, I think, intentionally. The author is inviting all believers to see themselves in that role in stanza 1. All of us do not want to be deceived in our faith; we want assurance; and the risen Christ is with us and confirms us in our faith (st. 2).

    "Not even Easter takes away the marks that Jesus bears." That is a memorable text that will stay with people. The Risen Christ still walks this earth in his Body, the Church.

    I always understood the "So" in stanza 4 to mean "How." Perhaps GIA's text committee should have changed it for the sake of clarity.

    I think most people will sing through stanza 4 and understand "earth's pain" to mean the pain of people on earth, "earth" being a personification of "people." They'll also understand "good news," even without the definite article, as the gospel.

    The two opening words of the text ("Show me") have always bothered me for not being an iamb. I'm not sure there is any well-known CM tune that lessens the somewhat jarring effect.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I fail to see it as a mere retelling of that story. "Thomas" is not mentioned, I think, intentionally.

    Forgive me, Fr., but I don't believe my remarks suggested that was the total summary of the Dunstan text. I tried to communicate that same conclusion of yours, a personal encounter with the Risen Christ that used more visceral language than Hopkins in ADORO. I can't speak to the author's intent unknowingly. I can agree that we all can likely benefit by the two differing perspectives: 1. Hopkins: I am not like Thomas; and 2. Dunstan: I am like Thomas.
    However, because of Christ's conclusive declaration, "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet still believe," and 2000 years of distance and distillation, I am predisposed to the Hopkins perspective.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Charles, I was specifically addressing a remark of Mark Thompson, when he stated

    Stanzas 1-3 boringly recap the story of Doubting Thomas...


    I think Mark has a gift for dissecting hymn texts. His statement was one of very few with which I have disagreed.

    Be that as it may, I think you made some very good points about the suitability of O FILII ET FILIAE and ADORO TE DEVOTE as "hymns of the day," if you will, for the Second Sunday of Easter.

    In my statement above from 10:38 AM, I failed to include something I had intended to write, namely, that I think Sylvia Dunstan's text has a wider use than simply on the Second Sunday of Easter. Perhaps with such a rich resource included in Worship IV for that particular Sunday, Dunstan's text may even be more often used on days other than that Sunday when a hymn proclaiming faith in the enduring presence of the Risen Christ is desired.
    Thanked by 1melofluent