cup vs chalice again
  • Ted
    Posts: 204
    On Holy Thursday we again encounter the word "cup" in the Responsorial psalm and the readings (as well as in the memorial acclamation), whilst the Eucharistic prayer uses the word "Chalice". This inconsistency actually goes against Liturgiam Authenticam no. 50d, which asks that the same vernacular word be used for translating a particular Latin word. Perhaps the readings may be translated in the near future to be consistent with the Canon but the Responsorial Psalm is a recent translation that will be with us for quite a while (as is the memorial acclamation). As I recall a blogger once somewhere pointing out, if Jesus poured out the Chalice of His Blood why then do we drink this cup? Is this another ideological tension between the meal nature of the Last Supper and its Sacrificial nature that is showing here? Does anyone know of a solution to all this, especially with regards to the Responsorial Psalm for this important Mass of the Last Supper?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,116
    Do what the books say. That's the solution. Don't invent a tension to worry about. The Lectionary's not going to be retranslated for several years at the earliest; the bishops don't have the appetite for that. And I doubt there will be much pressure from above for them to hurry that along. In the meantime, move on.
  • ... asks that the same vernacular word be used for translating a particular Latin word.

    The Psalter and the readings are not translated from the Latin.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Not meaning to be another "stickler," but is it still worth mentioning that "cup" is also a unit of measurement in addition to the other known noun. Chalice is clearly just a vesse
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Even when the Lectionary is eventually revised (years away), it probably will still present Psalm 116 with the word "cup", because the US bishops have indicated their intention to use the Revised Grail Psalms translation. It has already been approved for optional use now, and approved as being in compliance with Liturgiam Authenticam -- and it says "cup".

    The translation in the current Lectionary goes back to the 1970 edition, and is derived from the 1970 New American Bible. Douay-Rheims and RSV2CE (the Ignatius Bible) have "chalice", while Msgr. Knox's Bible has "cup".

    What's not so obvious to me is whether the Responsorial Psalm antiphon will be rendered with "cup" or "chalice". That's a translation of a Latin liturgical text, not a Hebrew scriptural text, so it's possible that the consistency rule which Ted cites may be applied to it. Someday, years away. :-)
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Um... anyone else ever hear the second version of the Mysterium Fidei? Pretty sure it uses cup too.

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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Oh, yeah.

    And people say we're an organized religion. :-)
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Here's one attempt to explain the memorial acclamation translation

    Practically all English-language Bibles translate the Greek poterion as "cup" rather than chalice, as current English attributes a technical meaning to this word which it did not have in the original. In a similar vein the word calicem in Latin can refer to many drinking and cooking vessels and not just those reserved for liturgical use.

    These memorial acclamations constitute a novelty within the Latin rite, and they were only introduced with the liturgical reform. With the removal of the acclamation "Christ has died …," which was found only in the English missal, the remaining three are basically scriptural quotes.

    For this reason I think the translator is justified in following here the commonly accepted biblical translation while translating the same word as "chalice" in the texts that manifest the Church's 2,000-year development of her liturgical traditions.

    The responsorial psalm refrain in question uses the term "Calix benedictionis," translated as "blessing-cup." Remember that the lectionary does itself contain full passages of scripture, but merely lists of scripture passages to be read at certain times, along with responsorial psalm refrains and Gospel acclamation verses.

    If the given refrain were translated "chalice," there would, as chonak points out, be a discrepancy between the refrain and the verses since it is unlikely we will ever have an "official" psalm translation that uses "chalice" (as Mark points out, the psalms are not translated from the Latin, though the translators do reference the vulgate and take its sense into account...whatever that means; also, calix has many more senses in Latin than just the Catholic understanding of "chalice").
  • Ted
    Posts: 204
    Just to complicate matters further, what is one to sing for the English Propers for Holy Thursday? The SEP for instance uses the old Solesmes English translations of the Latin as in the Communion antiphon "hic calix novi testamenti est in meo sanguine" which is translated as "this is the cup of the new covenant in my blood", words that parallel the words of Consecration (chalice), and a fragment from the Epistle (cup).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I rather thought this sort of absolutist, deconstructionist linguistical analysis was left to the disgruntled at ... well, nevermind.
    Um... anyone else ever hear the second version of the Mysterium Fidei? Pretty sure it uses cup too.

    Whether citing the B memorial or the Holy Thursday psalm, there's really no cognitive difference between what I said above as "measurement," which also meant to imply (as if I'm subtle) "contents" in the usage of the translated "cup."
    Just, for an antidote to Ted, take the mem/acc. and justifiably paraphrase "When we eat this sup, and drink this cup, we proclaim..." Well, we call it the Last Supper, yes? But clearly in JN 6 Jesus only signifies the breaking of bread and consumption as the institution. Even if the rest of the evening was spent unknowingly to us sharing spoons of beluga caviar and gelato, the Melchizedekian inference would remain clear, even despite the miracle of loaves and fishes, plus the post-resurrection breakfast Jesus fried up like dried kipper in Scotland.
    When we drink the cup, we take in the content is the clear reference. One cannot "drink a chalice." We can both sup, and describe a subset of that verb/noun by recounting the "breaking of the bread." Yeesh.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    well, whether you say cup or chalice, at least ours holds the true blood.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • This problem is averted by singing the Graduale settings!
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  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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