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  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    A question for any organists and choir directors:

    I'm seriously thinking of buying a 19th century Jardine organ to upgrade from the one currently in my choir loft for my rather small church. (I've been watching this organ for over a year, and the price keeps going down...)
    My question concerns the difficulties of communicating with the choir while playing a tracker organ. (as opposed to an organ with electric action, which I currently have.)
    Right now, I sit in the front and center of the choir loft, facing the choir, who stand between myself/the organ console, and the pipes. (therefore the choir is facing down toward the congregation but my back is towards the congregation.) The organ pipes/chamber fit between two large pillars.
    However, if I DO buy this organ (which I think would otherwise be ideal for the church,) the only place that seems like it would fit to put it due to space restraints would be between the pillars, where the pipes currently are, but since it has tracker action, the keyboard is attached to the rest of the organ (duh!) and so I will still be facing away from the congregation, but now the choir will be BEHIND me, and either facing the congregation, or possibly in monastery style seating, but they probably wouldn't turn around and look at me even for cut-offs and stuff...
    but only tracker action organs existed for thousands of years!
    what did people do?
    how does an organist without a separate choir director have any communication with the choir while playing a tracker organ if the choir can't stand on the sides, and certainly can't stand behind the organ (which would be the only place they could see the organist's face, but they can't because that is obviously where the organ chamber already is.)
    (mirrors have been suggested, but it's not a matter of me seeing them, it's a matter of them seeing ME, so there would have to be a lot of mirrors, and really, that wouldn't work.)

    sorry that was such a long question, I hope I made crystal clear what the architectural situation was, so please read it carefully if it didn't quite make sense!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I also direct from the console. A tracker would be completely impractical for my use, since the choir would have to either stand beside me, or in mid-air if they were behind me. I suspect their impracticality and lack of flexibility caused the decline in trackers in the early 20th century. They can work well if you can design your space around them. There is a church in my town that has designed the choir loft so everyone in the choir can see the director seated at the tracker. In an existing building, that may not be possible.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,805
    Set up a flatscreen monitor in front of the choir and projject yourself from a cam?
  • Chris
    Posts: 80
    For the past 10 years, I've been playing and conducting from the keydesk of my 1883 Jardine, and I have to tell you, it's absolutely fantastic.

    The organ is located in the center of the loft, about 2' away from the back wall, placing me right in the center, back to the altar. My choir sits on either side of me and behind me in monastic style (about 20 on each side), and faces each other when they sing. They don't have any problem seeing me or the hand I've freed up to conduct them when necessary. They've all learned what they must do to follow me and my conducting, and your choir will also. It works and it works well. So my advise to you is...

    Don't be deterred by the different configuration of the instrument. There are many things in our line of work that present unique challenges, and in the grand scheme of things, this is only a small challenge. (Getting used to the flat and parallel pedal board may prove to be a greater challenge!) If purchasing the instrument is right for your church, go for it. There are pictures and information of my Jardine at www.musicatstmarys.org . Go to the Music Ministry section in particular and you'll see where it is located in the loft. Best wishes!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,805
    I once had a jardine with exactly the same arrangement as Chris. Conducting from an organ is done mostly through the playing and I use demonstrative head movements to. I wouldn't be too concerned about them not facing you, however, a large mirror was helpful for seeing the altar.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    My choir is directly in front of me, and the back of the organ bench touches the loft railing. We turned down a gentleman who wanted to give us a 19th century tracker because we couldn't make it fit our small loft.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    Chris's experience also shows that the divided choir that people feel does not work, actually does work, since the choir sings at itself and not towards the people, creating a situation much more successful than facing a choir out to the church....

    Trackers used to be not such a problem.

    In the 1950's churches were still in the throes of the divided position....having a combined director/organist was not popular, as people felt one aspect of the musician had to override the other....and it was better to have a great choir director AND a great organist.

    There was a very large choir director's organization that probably rivaled if not exceeded the size of the AGO in the late 1800's.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    The Jardin will be a thing of delight and pleasure....
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    So it seems like people are either saying, "go for it, it's a great organ and you can adjust to the circumstances," or else, "that will be difficult."

    Does anyone have any experience with or know of anywhere that the arrangement is such that the choir is ONLY able to be behind the organist, and not at all on either side? (whether monastery style seating facing each other and therefore possibly able to glance to the side to see the organist, or else facing completely away from the organist but toward the congregation.)
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,610
    Joy,

    I filled in for 6 weeks when Michael Murray left a church in Shaker Heights, Ohio in which the console was in the basement UNDER the main floor level baptismal. (Full immersion view of people) with the altar placed out about 10 feet away from a small space, about 1' tall and 12' wide that I could look out of the see the back of the altar and the feet of the choir.

    Strategically placed mirrors permitted the choir to face across the sanctuary (divided choir) and sing with me seated below floor level behind them, conducting.

    Strange, but it worked.

    If you are able to conduct now and play you will be able to do so even if you are in a different position than you are used to.
    Here is a link to the church picture:

    http://www.heightschristianchurch.org/Services/tabid/14988/Default.aspx

    Yes the organ console is totally hidden behind and below the altar you can see.
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