Cardinal Sarah praises Ad Orientem
  • Jackson, John Mann,

    I often find your posts thought-provoking, whether I agree or disagree. On this point, however,
    Can you imagine Latin mass propers and ordinaries composed in such a style! They likely would be if the NO and vernacular had not come along.
    I don't think I've ever read such nonsense. If such things did occur, they would not be the result of following the rubrics, of celebrating Mass according to the mind of the Church, any more than the dreadful pederasts who made the headlines in Boston were doing what priests should be doing!
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,919
    Albert RoSewig was the Justin Bieber of his day.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    CGZ - So are you saying that it is nonsense that people would act nonsensically?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Chris -

    The very thought, of course, is dreadful. But, people are doing dreadful things to the NO, and very likely would be doing dreadful things to the EF if the NO weren't handy. The rubrics do not specify the style of music. The mind of the Church is paid no mind by people who do dreadful things. Therefore we have the treasured work of the great polyphonists and many such others, past and present. On the other hand, we have the extravaganzas of the baroque era, the opera- theatre-inspired genre of the Classical era, and the bloated gushiness of the Romantic era, the sick, warmed over Palestrina of the not-too-distant- past, and (right on cue) the pop-rock-jazz-whatever rubish of our time. No, this nonsense is not nonsense. It is what liturgically deranged people do. (And rubrics, such as they are, do not stop them. As for the mind of the Church - well, that is something that you and I could probably agree upon, but something which is nothing but empty words to the liturgically deranged. Wherever we have people we will have all the insouciant nonsense that many of them can get away with.)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Isn't Ad Orientem supposed to be done at both EF and NO? .....
    Thanked by 2Gavin ryand
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,942
    How can you do it when the Latins face west, and call it east? LOL. According to ancient practice, everyone should be facing east.
  • Charles,

    What do you mean "the Latins face west"? "Liturgical east" is "facing the altar, tabernacle, crucifix and rose window". It isn't sometimes geographical (or magnetic) east, but sometimes it is.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,942
    Liturgical east is nonsense. From the earliest times, including churches built by Constantine and his mother, the altars and people faced actual east. The belief, still held in the east, was that Christ would return from that direction. In those Constantinian churches the doors in the eastern walls were thrown open and all faced the rising sun. That's pretty powerful symbolism. I don't think anyone does the doors any more, that I am aware of. Where "liturgical east" came from, I don't know, unless the crazy Scholastics were responsible.
  • And, what do you expect from people who move Epiphany and Ascension around. Ascension is 40 days after Easter and a novena of days before Pentecost, but for 'Latins', as Charles calls them, such potent symbolism, such spiritual wealth (not to mention several thousand years of tradition), is inconvenient.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,942
    I am not necessarily criticizing, there is much I don't understand. I view Scholastics in a similar way as the Vatican II reformers. Both could propose the most reasoned and rational arguments for changing faith and practice. Other theologians could be in that same group, I suppose.

    I know my eastern roots are showing here. Faith and liturgical practice are both parts of sacred Tradition - with a big "T." That Tradition is a gift from the Holy Spirit to the Church. You don't rationalize it, dissect it, or create new definitions of it. It is Divine in origin. You accept it, believe it, and follow it.

    Epiphany and Ascension moving I don't understand, either. Epiphany is a more important celebration than Christmas. At Epiphany, God first manifested or showed his Divine Son to the world represented by the Magi. That seems incredibly significant to me.
  • Very true, Charles, Christmas as we know it is actually to a significant degree a Victorian invention. One to which, I must admit, I am quite attached... when, after Advent, it arrives.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,942
    I have nothing against Christmas. But is Epiphany only the end of the season for returning gifts? It seems so.
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    Ascension was not moved.

    Since before Epiphany was introduced, the "Latins" celebrated Christmas, the day God first manifested or showed his Divine Son to the world.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,942
    Since before Epiphany was introduced, the "Latins" celebrated Christmas, the day God first manifested or showed his Divine Son to the world.


    Latins still celebrate it - at the wrong time using the wrong calendar. LOL

    To quote a source that says it better, "In the fourth century, December 25 was finally adopted by the Western Christian Church as the date of the Feast of Christ's birth. It is believed that this change in date gave rise to the tradition of the "12 Days of Christmas." While the Western Christian Church celebrates December 25th, the Eastern Christian Church to this day recognizes January 6 as the celebration of the nativity. January 6 was also kept as the physical birthday in Bethlehem. In the Teutonic west, Epiphany became the Festival of the Three Kings (i.e. the Magi), or simply Twelfth day."

    For any practical purpose, Ascension has been moved. Ascension is now celebrated in the southern dioceses of the U.S. on Sunday. I don't know what other areas are doing.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,159
    The Feast of the Ascension is celebrated on the Thursday that is 40 days after Easter in the ecclesiastical provinces of Boston, Hartford, New York, Newark, Philadelphia, and the state of Nebraska.

    In all other dioceses of the United States, the celebration of the Feast of the Ascension is transferred to the following Sunday.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • And! Ascension is celebrated on Ascension in the Ordinariate - as is Epiphany (on Epiphany). In some countries (France, for one, I think) Epiphany is a HDO.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    @CharlesW
    The Byzantine parish down the road from me faces south.

    O_O
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,942
    @CharlesW
    The Byzantine parish down the road from me faces south.


    Are they using an existing building or did they build new? They are not supposed to do that, but sometimes economics dictate otherwise. Some Byzantine eparchies are not as faithful to tradition as others, sad to say. They are even - dare I say it? - Latinized. Shhhh! LOL.