Baroque Tuning
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    With all the complaints about hymns being too high to sing, what are the implications of using Baroque tuning (a 415)? Would it solve some of the issues with this? I'm probably just over analyzing the situation, and I am aware of the implications of how this relates to modern wind instruments. Basically, this is the same thing as leaving an auto transposer on -1. What are your thoughts?
  • Playing at that pitch gives a warmer sound to everything, including string instruments.

    Using a historic temperament also helps since it provides purer intervals in the easier keys to play. Which is interesting, but must be a product of them being easier in the first place.

    Doing blind testing working through the commonly available temperaments, if properly introduced, non-musicians often are faster to prefer something other than ET (phone home!) all the time than educated musicians. Which merely means they've been taught to expect all keys to be equally out of tune. But it's not terminal, they can get over it.

    Brass players tend to be like engineers - they love a problem - so they will even work to come up with solutions if they need to play at 415.

    People with perfect pitch....well, if they complain, what about people with perfect pitch when it was 415? Those with synesthesia....now this WOULD be very interesting.

    Good question and a good idea! Bound to create some controversy on this list, full of experts.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    what about people with perfect pitch when it was 415


    That's what would make me smirk at the music students whom it would "hurt" to hear something out of tune. Its just a ploy for attention. (Otherwise every piano, even the "perfectly tuned" stage instruments, would cause unbearable suffering)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    I agree with Noel - it is often a good idea. Hymns are usually printed in "tame" keys in order to be playable by many people, but if you are playing at A440, it is a good idea to transpose down a 1/2 step in some cases. For example, I find "Lobe den Herren" too high in G and too dull in F, but F-sharp is great. That is, if you are playing in equal temperament. In Europe you will find organs pitched all over the place, and in varying temperaments. If I am ever in a position to commission an organ, I would be tempted to have it pitched at A415 in something like one of the Neidhardt temperaments. Low pitch is rare in the U.S., because most organs are expected to play with other modern instruments and play modern choral repertoire meant for A440. For a while, I played on the magnificent Martin Pasi organ at St. Cecilia Cathedral in Omaha, which has a dual temperament system, one of which is 1/4-comma meantone. Playing in that temperament made the hymn-singing so much more lively and exciting. And Noel is right - the only people who complained were other organists; the congregation got used to it and liked the brilliant sound of those pure thirds.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,153
    Turning the transposer down a half step will work alright for A=415 at equal temperament, which may be what you have. But if the organ is tuned with any of several other temperaments, you might well be in trouble with transposition down a half-tone ... eg. Kirnberger II or III, 1/4 or 1/6 comma meantone (whether D# or E-flat), Kellner, Valotti, or indeed any of several others (Werckmeister, Silbermann, Young (1/6 ditonic comma). Try playing a piece on a Kirnberger II or III in E major (or G-flat major) and imagine that it's the key you land in by transposing down from F major (or G major) ... the result sounds, well, interesting.
  • You're right - this is a major problem with pipe instruments...which makes me wonder, what about historic transposing acoustic harpsichords? What did they do to tune to make the instrument playable?

    Digital instruments, well made, move the temperament center with the pitch, just as acoustic instrument tuners do.

    Equal Temperament is the equivalent of McDonalds being considered fine cuisine, pr as Pizza Hut winning the people's choice here in town.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen doneill
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,153
    which makes me wonder, what about historic transposing acoustic harpsichords? What did they do to tune to make the instrument playable?
    Did they even make historic transposing harpsichords until relatively recently? I don't think they did.

    If a left-right slide transposing harpsichord were made and tuned to anything other than equal temperament, the player would be in the same pickle as before. However, if the instrument were to be used for early music, one might tune the lower pitch A=415 (ie. the keyboard shoved to the left) in the desired temperament, and then, when the keyboard is shoved to the right (with A=440 more or less), just live with the weirdness for "modern" music.

    I know of one transposable harpsichord (of recent vintage) that is actually only used, almost exclusively, at the lower pitch, tuned with 1/4 common meantone. The player (and owner) simply never uses it at the higher pitch unless required to for certain performances with modern instruments, in which case he re-tunes it at A=440 (with or without non-equal temperament, depending upon what is being performed).
  • ZacPB189ZacPB189
    Posts: 70
    Brass players tend to be like engineers - they love a problem - so they will even work to come up with solutions if they need to play at 415.


    Not neccesarily; we're just used to problems. It's why we have tuning slides and a library of mouthpieces.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Brass players tend to be like engineers - they love a problem - so they will even work to come up with solutions if they need to play at 415.


    And organists enjoy re-inventing the wheel by resurrecting problems that were solved several centuries ago. I think Bach worked through all the temperament issues and came up with the most workable and practical solution.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Using a half step flat is a relatively big drop ... is it just because you have an autotransposer? I'd think something like A=430-435 might be better to warm up the sound and relax the singers just a little. I don't have perfect pitch, but I do have enough physical pitch discrimination (how the notes feel/sound as I sing them) that I really hate to sing in another key than the key I'm looking at. If it can be changed by a thumb over the key signature (F# to F, say) then that makes it more palatable, but unfortunately, very little music is written in F#. Or B, F#, G#, A#, D#, or C#. And I can't make myself imagine a Gb, Cb, or Fb key signature when singing. So in practice this only works in E or A and maybe D with very few accidentals.
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    CharlesW, the issue of temperament is not one that can be solved - it's a theoretical conundrum. All tuning systems are compromises. Bach came up with a system (not equal temperament, contrary to popular belief) that enabled playing in all keys, but Bach also played organs played in various temperaments, and improvised according to what worked well on the instrument.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @MrCopper, the idea of using -1 on the auto transposer was simply because that's the only way I have right now of approximating 415, aside from transposing at sight which I'm not particularly good at. It's not perfect in the slightest, but it would approximate the effect. I'm also not sure of if an organ originally tuned at 440 can be tuned down to 415 without any adverse effects to the instrument.
  • ChoirpartsChoirparts
    Posts: 147
    Ah yes ... watch out for the dreaded "comma". Another video to add to the list....
    Start at time 9:30 in the video...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkArVdlqqg0
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I read that the thing Bach criticized about Silbermanns was their temperament. However, they DO sound good! Being able to play in all keys is a very good thing, even if it doesn't tickle the ears of a given musician.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,153
    Using a half step flat is a relatively big drop ... is it just because you have an autotransposer?

    It's because many historical and period wind and other fixed pitch instruments (including harpsichords, for which a tuning at somthing like A=440 is to taut for the strings and frame) were found to (and are now available in modern copies) with a pitch at or very close to A=415. While old oboes and flutes were also made at other pitches, the A=415 tonal center for baroque and other early instruments, the A=415 seems to have won out as the modern accepted standard for Baroque pitch.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @Choirparts, that whole video is awesome. Period. I loved watching that: thank you so much for posting it!!
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    The big bang video: Is it youtube, my system, or the video? The whole seems horribly out of tune and filled with extraneous noise that nullifies any of the music.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    We could complicate this discussion with the question of Kammerton v. Chorton. And that the organ parts for Bach's Leipzig Cantatas are written a whole-tone "too low"; i.e. the organ is written for like a transposing instrument 'in D'.
    Thanked by 2BruceL doneill
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    "Standards" were still developing in Bach's time, and especially before. The standards seemed to be regional and dependent on individual instrument builders. They had no electronic devices to measure pitches accurately and depended on someone's ear for measurements. Actual standards verifiable by electronic means, is a relatively recent thing in music.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,153
    Kammerton v. Chorton

    Kammerton corresponded closely to our modern understanding of Baroque pitch (approximately A=415), and this was the common pitch at which most (orchestral) instruments played in Bach's time. On the other hand, Chorton denoted a common tuning for pipe organs and music sing in churches and was just about a whole tone higher than Kammerton. If an organ tuned at Chorton was to play with instruments pitched at the Baroque Kammerton, it was necessary for the organist to transpose. Many scores from that period provide some indication of that consideration.
    Thanked by 1doneill
  • The common historic transposing harpsichords had alternate offset keyboards, separately strung - early pianos appeared with sliding keyboards which required dealing with the tuning issues.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen