Fine Tracker Pipe Organ - appears to be redundant and available fast.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,558
    Appears to have become redundant in someone's mind:

    This is floating around the net - Storey is the pipe organ person that maintains it.


    1989 2 manual 21 stop Bedient Tracker organ available for low cost-no cost. Why wait? now's your chance to have a large and significant new tracker organ. Available immediately. Must be removed before the end of June 2013. Contact David Storey for details. 410-889-3800

    See Georgetown's Web site about the organ
    http://campusministry.georgetown.edu/groups/music/38424.html
  • This is sad.
    Eliminating such an instrument for 'lacking in functionality'
    takes a certain sickness and an extreme poverty of soul.
    (Not to mention a shameless cultural depravity.)
    (Not to mention an enormously presumptuous ingratitude.)
  • Well that article said it all; not meeting the needs of the eclectic music ministry (aka, praise and worship)..... I am sure that family who donated that beautiful instrument would certainly regret giving it to them now. Very sad indeed!
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,146
    They're removing that instrument? I am beyond disgusted.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,885
    This is the epitomy of foolishness and why American Catholicism will most surely fail.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Oh well, a more orthodox and traditional community will snap it up cheap and flourish whilst this contemporary, "eclectic" ministry will surely fade and fail in time.
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It is an extremely foolish university which disposes of such a donation. Mine would be glad to have it. Sadly, we have not yet built our new chapel to house it!
  • Hartley -
    When are you building your new chapel?
    Is it possible that you could put this organ in storage?
    I have played and had experience with Bedient organs.
    They are good. They sound good. They are well made.
    In fact, if I were the Bedient people, I would take the organ back and find a home for it. This is a trashy calumny.
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    Do we know anyone there who has experience with the instrument and can tell us about it? Not having heard it, I wondered if it is so "Neo-Baroque" it isn't useful for anything else. Slavishly following the design of historical instruments can limit an instrument's capabilities. I have seen too many instruments that are good historical clones, but not good service instruments.
    Thanked by 1Mark Husey
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,115
    Yes, I have played it. It is very Neo Baroque. But lovely anyway.
  • It may be 'neo-Baroque', but there's a swell division with a string and a celeste! The neo-Baroque instrument I play has none of these.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    Do we know for sure they are moving to praise and worship, or is there more to why they want to get rid of this instrument?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,115
    There is more to this story.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    They have a continuo organ, so maybe it is simply a matter of this particular organ not being a good fit for their program. Frankly, I question the value of so-disposed instruments for church use, aside from Lutheran churches.

    On the other hand, it is Georgetown.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    I wondered about that. Since they have a continuo, they don't appear to be anti-organ.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,395
    It would appear that their organ is at the back and that the positiv organ was purchased to provide accompaniment for choirs singing in the front (which seems to be their preferred location).

    The Bedient Opus 28 seems to be an excellent instrument that would fit well into any Catholic music program of singing polyponic and chant music. It is not just for Lutheran churches, although many Lutheran churches do indeed sensibly place the organ at the back or in the loft.

    The Georgetown campus ministry has simply sold out to the contemporary "eclectic" music crowd (read: big for-profit "catholic" music industry). This is a crying shame.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,558
    They would have done better to have Bedient build them a continuo (to their taste) and let them market their organ for them....
  • When most of us CMAA oriented folks read those ads for music director job postings, and it says "eclectic" or "diverse" musician, alarms and red flags go up. It means that they may or may not use an organ for Masses, but really prefer to do that hip praise and worship for Mass.

    The mere fact that they have a continuo, doesn't tell me a lot. We have digital and pipe organs that sit in churches with minimal to no use at all. I wouldn't bank my money solely on the fact that they have a continuo, but on whether it actually sees any use.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 931
    I'll bet "All Are Welcome" sounds terrible on that instrument.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • A neo-Baroque tonal design is not any less useful for liturgy than a neo-romantic one, or one of some other design. Baroque instruments were, after all, liturgical instruments and their music graced Catholic mass and Protestant service from the tip of Italy to Scandinavian regions, from France and Spain to the Balkans. It seems to me rather facetious to assert that these are not liturgical instruments. With imagination and artistry in registration they can adapt quite well to a variety of musical styles and genres. It wasn't that long ago that one could rarely find an instrument on which one could play Bach with any degree of flavour. Now, thankfully, we have instruments by many builders which play Buxtehude, Bach, Brahms, and Liszt with ease, not to mention hymnody and anthems. Even organs by such style-specific builders as Frits, Fisk, Pasi, Taylor & Boody and others are remarkably versatile. Suggesting that these are not 'liturgical instruments' is, at best, inconsidered, at worst, simply not knowing what one is talking about.

    It really begs credulity that even a premier educational institution such as this does not appreciate and treasure what they have, and wish to incorporate it into their 'eclecticism'. How unimaginative (among other things)!
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    According to their website, their "11pm Mass schola" sings at the 11pm Mass. Ending at midnight I suppose. It occurs twice, unusual if its a typo. Curious time for a Mass.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,354
    Which Mass would you expect the 11pm Mass schola to sing at? 10? 11:15?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,123
    Obviously at Noon, after their warmup rehearsal.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    Yes, there were many Baroque instruments in many countries, but they certainly did not all sound alike. Even in Germany, the organs sounded a bit different from region to region, with those near the French border sounding even less like the ones in the North.

    There have been some really bad instruments built everywhere, while some instruments have been exceptional.

    However, it seems to me that too many instruments have been built for either concert or ideological purposes, not to serve worship. Some are just period pieces that may or may not work in a church setting. That is why I mentioned service instruments in a previous post. A good service instrument is built for worship, with concert literature a secondary feature.

    Granted, Lutheran worship is neither Catholic nor Anglican, so it is not shocking that the instruments are historically different. A very good Lutheran instrument can sound wretched in another church and culture. Sometimes the fit is not right, and it shows.

  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,395
    The Bedient is only played for the Sunday 5:00 Mass. I assume the "continuo" (posativ) organ is used for the 11:00 Mass with schola.

    By the way, the Valotti temperament is quite versatile, especially so for Renaissance and Baroque music.
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,395
    CharlesW ... why do you keep referring to Lutheran instruments? Do you have some sense that Bedient only makes instruments designed for Lutheran service? If so, then my impression, from their many installations, is quite different from yours.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,354
    As a non-organist, I really have to ask:
    What, exactly, makes an organ fit for Lutheran services but not Catholic or Anglican services?

    Do they have a special set of stops for various Lutheran tone colors: 8' Heresy, 16' Boredom, 2' 2/3 Casserole Dish Mixture
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    There are no Bedient organs in my area, so I am trying to get a feel for how they sound and how versatile they are.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    For Lutheran worship, you need 14-rank mixtures and a former Baptist now Lutheran as organist - preferably Misery Synod. And you mostly play Bach, pronounced, "Bakkkkkkkkkkkkkkk." LOL.

    On a more serious note, Lutheranism was a North German/Scandinavian phenomenon, and the organs and literature were/are different. In this country, some Lutheran congregations hold to their traditional music, while many are as bad as most other churches. P&W has invaded everywhere.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,885
    charles

    sounds like P&W is a disease! (or a plague)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    I think so, Francis, and there seems to be no cure in sight.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,202
    How do you make words purple? Because I want to say other Lutheran stops include a 4' Lutefisk and a 32' Hillert Bombarde.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,115
    The Bedient organ is many organs. Gene built a very fine French baroque instrument for St. Mark's Episcopal in Ann Arbor. He built a Cavaille-Coll copy for Christ Church Louisville which subsequently ended up in Charleston SC at St. John the Baptist Cathedral.He built a very fine French influenced instrument for St. Rita Catholic in Dallas. He has built fine instruments of many genres. So one cannot pigeon-hole him. Gene is also well-known for his work with the French organ seminar held at St. Francois de Sales in Lyon,France.
    And for the record, I knew Gene at one time as he was a contender for a builder for a church that I was working at in Atlanta. I think very highly of him and his work. But he is not a "one trick pony" to say the least.
  • <font color="purple">purple text</font>
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    Perhaps if their Mass with the schola wasn't at 11 p.m., there might be more interest in choral music.
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 324
    The Bedient organ is many organs. Gene built a very fine French baroque instrument for St. Mark's Episcopal in Ann Arbor.


    That's St. Mark's in Grand Rapids rather than Ann Arbor. :)
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,115
    Thanks Scott for the correction.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,558
    One weak ass priest to let this happen...

    Info on director of music follows.. Can you spell NPM?

    2011-2012 Chapel Choir Roster

    The University Chapel Choir is the premier liturgical choral ensemble on campus and sings weekly during the academic term for the Sunday 9:30pm Mass in Dahlgren Chapel. Its represents all members of the university - students, faculty, staff, and alumni.

    Since its founding in 2001, the Georgetown University Chapel Choir has established its reputation for providing excellence in sacred music both on campus and off. Two of the choir's yearly traditions include hosting the Festival Service of Lessons and Carols for Advent at Georgetown's historic Holy Trinity Church and offering music for Mass at the Cathedral of Saint Matthew the Apostle, Washington DC. In addition, the Georgetown University Chapel Choir undertook its first choral pilgrimage to Italy in May, 2011.

    The choir sings an eclectic variety of SATB choral music and membership is offered to all who are associated with the university, including students, alumni, staff, faculty and members of religious communities. Rehearsals are held on Thursdays in Dahlgren Chapel from 7:15-8:50pm during the academic year.

    Students have the option of taking Chapel Choir for credit through the Department of Performing Arts. MUSC 100-31

    Contact
    Jim Wickman, Director of Liturgy and Music


    Jim Wickman currently serves as the Pastoral Associate for Liturgy/Director of Worship at Holy Trinity Catholic Church, Georgetown, Washington, DC. His background includes nearly 25 years in liturgy and music on the parish and diocesan levels, including five years as the Associate Director of the Office of Worship for the Archdiocese of Milwaukee.

    In addition to working at Holy Trinity, Jim is a Candidate for the Doctor of Ministry Degree, with an emphasis in liturgical studies. His area of interest is Liturgical Catechesis, Liturgical Formation and Ritual. He plans to complete his dissertation project in 2010. For more information on the project and dissertation, please click on the “research tab” above.

    Jim is also a Teaching Fellow in the Theology Department at The Catholic University of America. He teaches Christian Liturgy, Prayer and Sacraments.

    Pastoral Associate for Liturgy/Director of Worship, Holy Trinity Catholic Church, Georgetown
    Teaching Fellow, The Catholic University of America

    Education:
    Candidate, Doctor of Ministry,
    The Catholic University of America

    Quote:
    Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.”
    —Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy #14


    http://jimwickman.com/About.html

    http://jimwickman.com/Music_&_Presentations.html
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    It seems that a donor recently paid for the restoration of the chapel's rose window ... which is partially obscured by the organ. Hmmm....

    You can see something of the situation in this pitch for donations:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqZ-Q4WBCx0

    The resident choir is doing some excellent music with the chamber organ:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxwnRmTmv6w
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I don't know any facts about Georgetown, or the situation of this organ. As I said above, I tend to assume the removal of the Bedient will make way for a better organ (as removing the Bedient from St. Mark's in Grand Rapids did!). This strikes me as a charitable and logical assumption.

    If someone is stating that it was removed so that they may do non-organ genres with more ease, let him state his facts for believing so. To suggest otherwise, with no sound reason for believing it, strikes me as probably some sort of sin against charity. Let's not malign the university's chapel ministry - unless they actually deserve it!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,558
    You've obviously not read the comments about the organ and why they are getting rid of it....so please accuse people of sinning only after you've paid your dues....

    Rescaling of an organ can work miracles, too bad they didn't get it done and just kept the organ - there are few screamers that can't be made lovely. Personally, I find the choir up front singing facing the people too NPM for my taste.

    Of course, he's got a reason:

    Quote:
    Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.”
    —Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy #14

    Is the listing of this Mass sung by the Schola to attract people, or to warn them in advance as you would with a guitar Mass?

    If this is a Jesuit organization, do I need extra security now around my house?
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    The church website in Grand Rapids says they have a J.W. Walker organ.
  • Thanks Paul_D for the video links. I love the part in the first video at 2.50 where the generous donor lady says "it was always the Jesuits that drove you to make yourself a better person, to think more clearly, and with greater depth."

    When I hear that, along side of the guitar background music throughout the video, I can only think about how the St. Louis Jesuits drove us to greater depths of music throughout the 70's and 80's.

    The second video was much better. They should have inserted that into their pitch for donations.
    Thanked by 1SamuelDorlaque
  • Notice in the second video that the singers actually look at the conductor and watch for cues!!!!
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,550
    What a novel idea. Wish my choir would do that! ;-)
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 931
    Now, let's not trash the 11 PM Mass time too much. This is actually a pretty common phenomenon on college campi. The late night Sunday Mass has become a pretty well attended Mass.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Unfortunately, due to the organ's design, style and placement, it is extremely limited and lacks the functionalty needed in an eclectic music ministry"

    I don't see anything there about getting rid of it so they can eliminate traditional genres. Frankly, the instrument DOES appear to be limited. Manual stop action, no pistons, tempered tuning, all from a rather unfortunate era of organ building. I don't know about the supposed placement issues, but it doesn't immediately appear to be in a suitable location for choral singing. I wouldn't get rid of a presumably suitable organ just because of these issues, but maybe they have a good source of income.

    Then again, maybe a washed-up hippy just wants to get rid of all that high-flutin classical music. My point is that we don't have the information to figure it out either way. And to presume the worst without solid evidence strikes me as both foolish and sinful.

    At any rate, let's say they want to get an instrument more suited to a truly diverse program. They get a good organ, someone else gets this good Bedient organ, everyone wins. If it is in fact as many here fear, the Bedient organ gets a better home where it will not be needlessly neglected.

    Publicly trashing a specific parish music program, deservedly or not, is not going to accomplish anything good. Not one good thing. And the ill effects it will have on our and our cause's reputation strike me as reason enough to refrain from that behavior. "Chant? Isn't that what those angry nutjobs at MusicaSacra like??" Do you think the music director at the chapel would like to attend a Colloquium to learn about sacred music?

    It's a broader issue. By their fruits shall you know them. And boy oh boy do we have a lot of fruits here...
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CharlesW
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I need the opinions of some people who really know what they are talking about in terms of organ installations.

    I'm very seriously interested in bringing this instrument to my church - and might have the money to back that desire up.

    I called and spoke with the good people at Storey organ. They said that the Georgetown chapel seats maybe 250 - 300 people and that the organ is on low wind pressure. They had serious doubts about its efficacy in a church that seats 500 - 600 and is very resonant.

    Is there a way to make this organ suitable for a large church? Or would it be a failure in placement?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,558
    They are full of crap.

    Wind pressure does not fill a church, resonant acoustics fill a church. Any instrument can be revoiced and rescaled to match a different room if necessary. And I would definitely talk not with them, but with Bedient, about the suitability of that organ to your room and get their suggestions on what changes might be suitable and also get them to dismantle and reinstall it for you.

    Trust the people that built it. They are a firm of integrity and will treat you well.

    Windpressure is tied to the scaling and voicing of the pipes - raising or dropping it from where it was intended by the builder can be disastrous without also revoicing...
  • PGA -
    By all means talk to Bedient soon.
    They are the ones who can give you accurate advice about this instrument.
    I hope that it works out for you.