If you enjoyed Dr. Peter Wagner's defense of the Editio Vaticana . . .
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    If you enjoyed reading Dr. Peter Wagner's defense of the Vatican Edition, you need to read Bewerunge's article, AND HERE IT IS (Click Here).

    Here's but a "taste":

    The Sanctus of this Mass is not found anywhere. It seems to be Dom Pothier's own composition. The same holds of the Sanctus No. III, and the Agnus No. II, of the Cantus ad libitum. Now there is not, of course, any objection to Dom Pothier or anybody else composing new pieces of Church music, and if they select to write in the style of the Gregorian music, they are at perfect liberty to do so. But I certainly think that such compositions ought to have no place in the Vatican edition, which purports to be a collection of medieval music.

    If you appreciate articles like these being made available, please consider supporting Corpus Christi Watershed by purchasing copies of this this brand new publication.
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    The original German text of Wagner's defence, by the way, can be found scanned here, in this (German) website that promotes the method of singing of the 1908 Editio Vaticana.
  • Hello Jeff Ostrowski,

    I did read the Wagner article. I'm about half-way through the Bewerunge article.

    A difficulty I have is that when an author makes a comment like the one you have in bold above I'm not sure what to believe. Is his observation accurate about Pothier creating Mass Ordinary parts?

    Another somewhat related concern: Are there melodic differences between the Liber Usualis and the Editio Vaticana?
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > Is his observation accurate about Pothier creating Mass Ordinary parts?

    In what the Agnus Dei II ad lib. is concerned, yes, for sure. In what other parts mentioned are concerned, I think we may take him at his word.

    > Are there melodic differences between the Liber Usualis and the Editio Vaticana?

    There are melodic differences between the 1903 Liber Usualis (available here) and the Editio Vaticana, but later editions of the LU follow the EV.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

    Dear Chris,

    You're a brave man to read through all that! Regarding Pothier's adaptations, my understanding is that, when all was said and done, some of Pothier's "medieval adaptations" did make it into the Vaticana Kyriale.

    As to what to believe . . . well, we look at the various articles & books (T.A. Burge, Wagner, Combe, etc.), we compare the publications (most of which are available at the
    Lalande Online Library), and we try to make sense of it....

    ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

    dvalerio, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for directing us to that webpage!!!!

    Although I (sadly) understand very little German, I notice that site is getting some good use out of the picture I uploaded some time agoNow I wish I'd had the time required to label a few more of those people!
  • Jeff,

    I find this reading very interesting!

    I think my experience is probably a common among parish musicians who post here. We, at some point after childhood, were introduced to chant and had some opportunity to try to sing it. As we begin, we realize there are new things to learn. Once we begin to research and sing and listen more, however, a couple of things happen:

    1. We are taken by the beauty of the chant
    2. We realize there are question marks in chant with answers given by different authorities that don't always agree.

    When we see how beautiful chant is as prayer, we want to sing it as well as we can. The trouble, at first at least, is that in certain categories (like rhythm), there are no ready made answers with which everyone agrees. We have to try to formulate the best answer we can.

    I'm trying to piece together a basic narrative of what has happened in chant since Pothier.

    I feel like once I have a feeling for the basic narrative, I'll be in a better position to try to fill in the blanks.

    I've just finished the English translation of Mocquereau's Gregorian Musical Rhythm. I've read some Fr. Kelly articles and the three Robert Fowells' articles that appeared in Sacred Music some time ago. I've read Fr. Skeris' introduction to the Pierre Combe book on Googlebooks. It looks like I'll have to just buy the Combe book some day. I've just started the Gajard book that was assembled from his lectures. I did print out the Carroll article that you posted. I'll try to read that soon.

    Thanks for all of your work,
    In Christ...