Things to consider for loft, chancel stalls, choir room, music classroom, etc.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    The parish at which I'm employed is in the process of designing a church and facilities to be built over the coming years. This gives me the opportunity to make sure the various musical spaces (and a pipe organ, for that matter) are designed and situated practically and logically. I have yet to work on a project such as this in my career, as I'm still relatively young. I wanted to ask the hive mind, especially those of you who have been down this road before, what I ought to be looking out for and advocating for during this process. Loft vs. chancel stalls for choir and location of organ? What should I make sure will be in the loft? In the choir room? The music classroom, if it's a separate room from the choir room?

    What has worked well for you, and what should be avoided?

    Thanks, y'all.
  • In the chancel ('in choir') is where choirs belong. They sound better, they look better, they behave better, they are integrated better, they are focused better and are less distracted. They are where they belong and are more a part of the liturgical action - of what is happening.

    As far as the organ is concerned. Settle on a builder while the church is being planned and have him and the architect work together closely on matters of acoustics and design.

    Is this for your Ordinariate church?
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    It is indeed.
  • As most Cathedrals, monastic Chapels, and large churches in England have no apse but a large flat East Wall featuring a large East Window above the altar with a large depiction of something of some Biblical scene perhaps something in the life of the church's saint. Often the window will be flanked by statuary.
    You will, of course, want a rood screen and perhaps riddle curtains

    The organ should be placed in two facing chambers above the heads of the standing choir.
  • smt
    Posts: 62
    Could you elaborate a bit?

    I have several options in mind:

    * Sth like Westminster Cathedral, the choir in a semi-circle behind the altar. But should they be hidden in Westminster? That could impair the sound. A friend was in WC recently and told me, that the new director of music refuses to use any kind of amplification of the choir. The result was (his opinion, I can't confirm) that the organ was too loud.
    * If they are not hidden and behind the altar, it could be distraction of the congregation.
    * Parallel choir stalls behind an altar?
    Choir stalls in front of the altar? Similar to the schola cantorum of San Clemente in Rome?

    I find it very difficult. Of course it's also highly dependent on the placement of the altar. I guess it's a NO church, so the altar stands free and normal celebration will be versus populum?
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    This is an ordinariate parish, so Mass is celebrated ad orientem at the high altar which is not free-standing. There will indeed probably be a rood screen and riddle curtains.

    We have a mixed volunteer choir which currently is around 15 people at full strength. The arrangement we currently use has us in sort of mock stalls (two parallel pews facing the same direction) on the gospel side of the chancel. The organ (which is a toaster but does what we need for the time being) is placed in front of these two pews and is also facing into the chancel (has to be this way because of space). I am both the organist and DM, so the ideal layout will allow me to communicate with the choir while playing.

    I am not considering other arrangements for the choir apart from chancel stalls vs. loft. The idea of hiding them behind the altar is certainly interesting, but will not be architecturally possible.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The hiding behind the Altar / Sanctuary works at Westminster because of the design. Hiding behind the altar as at Southwark (St Georges) Cathedral looks and feels stupid. The choir are on the original sanctuary more or less where the choir stalls were.

    Having sung at both places It is not too difficult to fill the building with sound.

    In my experience, choir stalls (on the sanctuary) are great for singing chant when you have a male (Liturgical) Schola, A choir loft is better if you are going to sing polyphony with a mixed choir.
    Thanked by 1trentonjconn
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    choir stalls (on the sanctuary) are great for singing chant when you have a male (Liturgical) Schola, A choir loft is better if you are going to sing polyphony with a mixed choir.


    I agree with this. Our choir is mixed and currently both the men and women vest in cassock and surplice which I have scruples about. I also prefer mixed choirs to be in the gallery. I think the setup we're aiming for currently is to have both a gallery and stalls, and to use one or the other depending on the occasion. This, of course, brings up the question of multiple organ consoles...
    Thanked by 2tomjaw smt
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Having been a parishioner at, successively, Westminster and St George's (Southwark), I agree with tomjaw. Though I think St George's worked not too badly initially when there was a screen behind the cathedra. NB they are 'hiding' behind the cathedra, not the altar.
    NOT having sight of the conductor/director waving his arms is IMHO essential for the PIPs, evensong at St Paul's was utterly ruined for me by the prat occupying centre stage carving the music from thin air with his arms, not that the design allows an alternative (blame Wren).
    Thanked by 1smt
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 285
    Will the stalls be outside or inside the communion rail? The typical Anglican configuration of having the choir stalls to the west of the rail has always perplexed me, and I've wondered if it was really the historic English layout or an Oxford Movement innovation to keep the choir technically outside of the sanctuary and thereby allow female singers. Outside of the Ordinariate, I can't recall ever seeing choir stalls in front of the Communion rail in a Catholic church. The normal location for the rail is near the crossing, not the east end of the sanctuary.

    Where I grew up, there were nearly as many Methodist churches as Episcopal ones with a "divided chancel" configuration, but the communion rail in the Methodist churches was invariably on the congregation side of the choir stalls. Back when I did a lot of substitute work, I found the traipsing of the congregation through the chancel for communion somewhat disconcerting in the Episcopal churches. I remember at least one church where the return route took half the congregation through the sacristy.

    I've never conducted from the console in a divided chancel configuration, but I know of a number of churches where it's done successfully with well-placed mirrors. I share your reservations about putting women in cassock and surplice. A tunic and cap of the same color as the cassock might be an attractive and complementary possibility if a "vested choir" is insisted upon.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Episcopal church in my town (dates from 1750s, but remodeled several times) has choir stalls to the east of the altar rail. As does Methodist church in town.

    I met the former music director of Fr Hellriegel (author of To Jesus Christ our sovereign king) at an NPM once. She described the arrangement at his (German) parish church in St Louis. The whole choir sat up front. Men and boys sat inside the altar rail. Women and girls sat outside the altar rail.

    Healey Willan (st Mary Magdalene, Toronto) apparently had a male schola which sang the propers from the sanctuary (with organ accompaniment). The console and SATB mixed choir was in the loft, where he played and conducted. The SATB choir sang primarily a capella anthems and mass parts. To the best of my understanding.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Msgr. Hellriegel's place in some ways was a dream.

    As to conducting, I'm much less bothered by chant conducting when the schola is in the front. I don't really enjoy watching someone conduct polyphony etc.

    I really like the layout of a parish which I recently visited. It was built in the 1980s IIRC, and for various reasons, they did not build a loft. The organ is on the Epistle side, and they have all of the chairs arranged perpendicular to the altar. You can't see the singers when they are seated, but you can kind of see them if they move forward (they can form a circle or whatever all behind the kneeler/book rack). This church is much wider however, but in any case, the choir is in the front, sort of, but not in a loft, and not behind the rail, so they can have men and women or one or the other, without problems.

    If I wanted maximum flexibility and to minimize my scruples, I would arrange it so that the rail does not extend in front of the pews which you use for the choir, but I would build the screen so that you can sort of hide the choir.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    Using the screen to obscure the congregation's view of the choir and conducting is a good idea. I believe that we are considering a setup similar to what Patrick mentioned seeing in Methodist/Episcopal churches as far as the rails are concerned; namely, a rail/screen between the choir and the people, but the "actual' altar rail between the choir and the sanctuary. Not sure which rail the people would receive at; hopefully they don't have to traipse through the chancel.

    The primary thing that concerns me about being up front instead of elevated in the back is being visible and, therefore, having an inability to adequately communicate with the choir. It also seems, to me at least, that a loft configuration would better allow for conducting/communicating from the organ bench.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    I'm not quite sure why some people poo-poo choir lofts; I find them delightful as long as they are large enough. You're high up, out of the way, and it helps with sound projection. If being at the west end is too far, you can take the Covington Cathedral approach and have the large balcony in the transept.

    If you can, make sure that there are TWO staircases up to the loft. This can really help with flow, depending on how the church is laid out. If you want to be inclusive, see about having a silent elevator put in. This helps with hauling instruments up, and means that older choir members can still make the ascent. It's a big expense / commitment, but it's worth it in the grand scheme of things. If they put the elevator in a bell tower and connect it to the loft via a little access hallway on the second level, it will be totally unheard in the church.

    Have proper choir risers in the loft. As in: built in, and large, deep steps. Have them cast in concrete, if you can, which will help with projection.

    I'm a fan of having a movable console if it is feasible (and assuming you don't get a tracker). You don't need it until you reeeeeeally need it.

    Make sure the instrument is up a little above the choir. Few things are less pleasant than standing with your head right in front of a facade and having the raw pipe sound blast you 3' from your head. Getting it up also helps protect the pipes from getting dinged.

    If you take the split-case design, consider having separate swell controls for the swell shades that open inward, vs. those that open toward the nave. This would allow you to shut the nave shades, and still ride the ones that face in toward the choir, allowing for a modicum of expression whilst still allowing the choir to be better perceived over the organ.

    I'm also a big fan of putting greats under expression. If you want to be purist: leave the shades open. But if you do double-expression, then the instrument becomes MUCH more flexible. This is particularly helpful with smaller organs.

    If you can have choir stalls / stands installed, all the better. I'm a big fan of the anglican-styled music stands that can hold everyone's music for them in a standing position. This may or may not work for you.

    If you can have the space, have access to the choir section from both the middle and the sides. Nothing worse than when someone needs to excuse themselves and a whole row of people has to file out or awkwardly lean out of the way so one person can get in and out.

    If you can, see about having the choir room relatively close to the loft (if you get one). Older people cannot robe in the dungeon and then climb 3 flights of stairs to get to the loft to sing and still have energy or breath. If you can, either have the choir room in the basement right beneath the loft and have an elevator (yes, I've seen this before, retrofitted to an older church, no less!), or if the church is built with a larger facade, see about having the choir room in the large central bell tower behind the organ, or in one of the side towers, so you can warm up and then file right out into the loft.

    You may also want your office to be closer to the church than the rest of the office building. Maybe. Think about how it would work for you. But if you do have your office in the back of the church, rather than a separate office wing, then you need a dedicated copy machine (yes, copy machine, not a dinky printer) to have at your disposal. You don't want to be running to the other end of the building for prints. In any case, even if your office is elsewhere, having a little work-nook behind the organ, or something like that is still helpful. It's ok to do a little planning during the homily of your fourth mass for the weekend.

    Make sure you accommodate for brass or other instrumentalists if you intend to have them. And do not make them sit behind the choir and blast them out.



  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    This is precisely the kind of information I was looking for. It is greatly appreciated.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    "I'm not quite sure why some people poo-poo choir lofts; I find them delightful as long as they are large enough. You're high up, out of the way, and it helps with sound projection. If being at the west end is too far, you can take the Covington Cathedral approach and have the large balcony in the transept."

    Here's one thing usually overlooked: in older churches, the staircase (usually only one) is often treacherous for choristers with safety issues, who are not always elderly people.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    Happily, that is not the case here, Liam.

    Another thought regarding the balustrade: either have filigree iron work, or, if part of the wall is to be solid (which isn’t all bad: it can help hide visual clutter from down stairs) make sure the solid portion is only half-height, and then make the rest of it an open rail (could even be simple like a normal bannister with fluted columns). Having it open, or semi-open helps with tonal egress. I used to direct at a church that had a 4’ solid wall. It noticeably affected the sound.

    Think about having microphone ports added (the horror, I know). Have them placed throughout the loft, then you'll have flexibility of placement, even if you don’t use half of them. Perhaps you can also have a connection run to the ceiling. These sorts of things are helpful for pickup on live streams, or for making recordings. Better to have and not use, than not have at all, and then incur a huge install expense once you need it.

    Lighting: lots of it. Spots on the organ facade, overhead for choir, etc. Make sure it can be plenty bright, and that you have control of it from the loft. I despise it when you have to turn loft lights on and off from a breaker panel in the sacristy. Nooooope.

    Consider making them dimmable. And make sure they are LED so you don’t have to change them often. It’s difficult and expensive if your ceiling is high. As for dimming, this is helpful for some things, like after lights can come on at the vigil, but you don’t want it to be like Easter morning… or for vespers, etc. Make the organ spots have a separate circuit from the choir lights.

    Have electrical outlets installed at the base of the console if you intend to have a non-integrated light. Or consider them running an outlet that is mounted under the key desk of a movable console. For my part, I hate music rack lights, so I always need an overhead light. It’s always a pain when there is nowhere to plug it in and you have to run extension chords.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    Get video monitors installed. Have a camera in the vestibule, another at the start of the center aisle under the loft, and another of the altar. That way you can see what the heck is going on. Having one in the vestibule is particularly helpful for funerals and weddings.
    Thanked by 1trentonjconn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Dimmable lights work wonders. We have them in our chapel, and we use them for Tenebrae. Every year, it’s a struggle towards the end, but going forward at least I can say that the singers need book lights to switch off right at the end of the Miserere. For most of Tenebrae, the dimmed light is just enough and isn’t detracting from the office (listen, if we had it memorized…).