The Traditional Hymnal : by Koerber : Coming Soon
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    I will be publishing a hymnal for sale which I will be making available soon. It will be a saddle stitch hymnal (initially) containing the best of hymns and chant appropriate for the liturgy. I am hoping to sell them for $3 a piece with a bit of discount on bulk orders... here is a preview of my past months work putting this together.

    All content will be Public Domain except for those willing to share work into the PD (some of my works I hope to include).

    A choral edition will appear within a year (God willing) with EXCELLENT four part harmonization and voice leading.

    Sample attached.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 980
    francis,

    As usual a beautiful looking product. I look forward to buying the completed hymnal.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Looks beautiful and I was noticing lots of verses of hymns I am not familiar with... I like that!
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    most of the text of these hymns harken back to the original translations found on cyberhymnal... you would be amazed at how much theology has been 'sterilized' from our modern hymnals. Lot's of verses which are militant in nature have been almost entirely deleted. References to God as Father, expunged. It goes on and on. Hopefully this little work will help to restore some balance.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Someone mentioned the repeating first verse under the melody which also appears in the paragraphs. 1. The text under the music is for reference (assignment of syllables to notes, etc.)
    For those who know the hymn well, no music is required therefore reading only the text is what most people will follow. 2. I am going to offer customization for those who want it.
    Thanked by 1PhilipPowell
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,693
    Francis, using italic text in the scores seems really odd to me, and it can't help readability. Also, placing the titles below the scores is unconventional enough to be confusing.

    On a happier note, I was glad to see one of your works in the St. Michael Hymnal today (#765 in the fourth edition).
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Here is an updated Index

    incipits are provided in solfege abbreviation or tune name

    Contents are:
    Kyriale (GC Notation)
    Gregorian Chant Hymns (GC Notation)
    English Hymns (Modern Notation)
    Latin Hymns (Modern Notation)

    _____

    Kyriale
    Credo (Ambrosian) Sfmfsmm
    Credo Iii Smdfmmrd
    Cum Jubílo (Feasts Of The Blessed Virgin Mary) Mass IX
    Cunctípotens Génitor Déus (Ordinary Feasts) Mass IV
    De Angelis (Second Class Feasts) Mass VIII
    Kyrie: Sundays Of Advent Mass XVII
    Kyrie: Sundays Of Lent Mass XIV
    Lex Et Origo (Paschal Time) Mass I
    Orbis Factor (Sundays Throughout The Year) Mass XI

    Gregorian Chant Hymns
    Adestes Fideles Ffdfsmd
    Adóro Te Devóte Flddddrd
    Alma Redemptoris Mater Dmfsls
    Alleluia Lapis Revolutus Ddrerdr
    Angelus Domini Nuntiavit Lslddrr
    Anima Christi Sssssmfsmr
    Attende Domine Dmssssdtsls
    Ave Maria Fdrrltl
    Ave Verum Fslfsf
    Conditor Alme Siderum Mdmsslfs
    Corde Natus Fsltlslsf
    Dulcis Iesu Memoria Ssssdmrd
    Stella Caeli Exsterpavit Dssfstlf

    English Hymns
    Alas And Did My Savior Bleed My Savior
    All Creatures Of Our God And King Lasst Uns Erfreuen
    All My Heart This Night Rejoices Warum Sollt Ich
    All People That On Earth Do Dwell Old Hundreth
    Alleluia, Sing To Jesus Hyfrodol
    America, The Beautiful Materna
    Angels We Have Heard On High Gloria
    As With Gladness Men Of Old Dix
    At The Cross Her Station Keeping Stabat Mater
    At The Lamb’s High Feast We Sing Salzburg
    Battle Hymn Of The Republic Battle Hymn
    Be Joyful Mary Regina Caeli
    Bethlehem Of Noblest Cities Stuttgart
    Christ The Lord Is Risen Today Easter Hymn
    Come Holy Ghost Lambillotte
    Come Thou Almighty King Moscow
    Come Thou Long Expected Jesus Stuttgart
    Come Ye Thankful People Come St Georges Windsor
    Comfort Comfort Ye My People Genevan 42
    Creator Of The Stars Of Night Conditor Alme Siderum
    Crown Him With Many Crowns Diademata
    Dear Angel Ever At My Side St Ann
    Draw Nigh And Take The Body Of The Lord Coena Domini
    Faith Of Our Fathers St Catherine
    Firmly I Believe And Truly Drakes Broughton
    For The Beauty Of The Earth Dix
    Forty Days And Forty Nights Heinlein
    Glory Be To Jesus Caswall
    God Of Our Fathers National Hymn
    Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above Salve Regina Coelitum
    Hark The Herald Angels Sing Mendelssohn
    Have Mercy Lord On Us Southwell
    Holy God We Praise Thy Name Grosser Gott
    Holy Holy Holy Nicea
    I’ll Sing A Hymn To Mary Aus Meines Herzens Grunde
    Immaculate Mary Lourdes
    Jerusalem My Happy Home Land Of Rest
    Jesus Christ Is Risen Today Easter Hymn
    Jesus My Lord My God My All Sweet Sacrament
    Joy To The World Antioch
    Let All Mortal Flesh Picardy
    Lift Up Your Heads Ye Mighty Gates Truro
    Lo How A Rose ‘Er Blooming Ein Ist Er Ros
    Lord Who Throughout These Forty Days St Flavian
    Love Divine All Loves Excelling Hyfrodol
    My Country Tis Of Thee America
    My Shepherd Will Supply My Need Resignation
    Now Thank We All Our God Nun Danket
    O Come All Ye Faithful Adeste Fideles
    O Come Divine Messiah Venez Divin Messie
    O Come O Come Emmanuel Veni Emmanuel
    O God Of Lovliness Crusaders Hymn
    O Jesus We Adore Thee Fulda
    O Lord I Am Not Worthy Aule
    O Mary Of Graces Sioban Ni Laoghaire
    O Most Holy One Sicilian Mariners
    O Queen Of The Holy Rosary Ellacombe
    O Sacred Head Surrounded Passion Chorale
    O Saving Victim 1: Werner 2:Abbe Deuget
    O Sons And Daughters O Filii Et Filiae
    O Thou Immortal Holy Light Tallis Canon
    Of The Fathers Love Begotten Divinum Mysterium
    On Jordans Bank Winchester New
    Once In Royal Davids City Irby
    Praise God From Whom All Blessing Flow Old Hundreth
    Praise My Soul The King Of Heaven Lauda Anima
    Praise The Lord Ye Heavens Adore Him Austria
    Praise To The Lord The Almighty Lobe Den Herren
    Savior Of The Nations Come Nun Komm Derheiden Heiland
    Silent Night Stille Nacht
    Sing Praise To God Who Reigns Above Mit Freuden Zart
    Songs Of Thankfulness And Praise St Edmund
    Soul Of My Savior 1: Anima Christi 2: Dibici
    Stars Of The Morning Slane
    That Eastertide With Joy Was Bright Puer Nobis
    The First Noel The First Noel
    The Glory Of These Forty Days Erhalt Uns Herr
    The King Of Love My Shepherd Is St Columba
    The Star Spangled Banner National Anthem
    The Strife Is Oer Victory
    What Child Is This Greensleeves
    What Wondrous Love Is This Wondrous Love
    When Morning Gilds The Sky Laudes Domini
    Ye Watchers And Ye Holy Ones Lasst Uns Erfreuen

    Latin Hymns
    O Salutaris Hostia 1: Werner 2:Abbe Deuget
    O Sanctissima Sicilian Mariners
    Panis Angelicus Sacris Solemnis
    Tantum Ergo St Thomas
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    I am shooting for about 150 selections in total. The ones posted above are completed. I can set about 30-40 a day, and hope to set the rest in the next few days.

    Customized Printing (adding and subtracting content) will be available only in printed lots of 200 or more. (Public Domain music and text required)

    Additional hymn engraving per selection - $10 per selection
    Reflowing hymnal - per hourly rate (reflow hymn order- moving new content in or out of hymnal (insertion and deletion), and adjusting previous and following pages to accomodate flow.

    NOTE: As Chonak pointed out, the title below the music can be confusing, so I have moved the title above the music. As far as the italic text in the music itself, that will remain as it is only a reference (the first verse is repeated in paragraph form below the music) and the italic font allows for more letters/words on a line horizontally. This allows me to fit most of the hymns on two lines of staves. Space is a premium in this publication as it is to be saddle stitched allowing only 80 pages or so.
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 980
    Francis, can we pre-order?
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,687
    except for those willing to share work into the PD

    Is this an invitation to share? If yes, count me in.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    CHG et al... I will always consider any submissions!
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    @bhcordova

    Sure thing. Will you require any customization? I have completed all the additions this morning and can post the final index for your consideration.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 980
    Will not require any customization.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Final Table of Contents

    KYRIALE

    Lex Et Origo (Paschal Time) 1
    Kyrie 1
    Sanctus 1
    Agnus 1
    Cunctípotens Génitor Déus (Ordinary Feast) 1
    Kyrie 1
    Sanctus 2
    Agnus 2
    De Angelis (Second Class Feasts) 2
    Kyrie 2
    Gloria 2
    Sanctus 3
    Agnus 4
    Cum Jubílo (Feasts Of The Blessed Virgin Mary) 4
    Kyrie 4
    Sanctus 5
    Agnus 5
    Orbis Factor (Sundays Throughout The Year) 5
    Kyrie 5
    Sanctus 5
    Agnus 6
    Kyrie: Sundays Of Advent 6
    Kyrie: Sundays Of Lent 6
    Sanctus, Agnus: Sundays Of Advent & Lent 7
    Credo III 7
    Credo (Ambrosian) 9

    HYMNS & ANTIPHONS

    Adestes Fideles / O Come All Ye Faithful 11
    Adóro Te Devóte 12
    Alas And Did My Savior Bleed 13
    Alleluia, Sing To Jesus 14
    All Creatures Of Our God And King 14
    All My Heart This Night Rejoices 15
    All People That On Earth Do Dwell 16
    Alleluia Lapis Revolutus 17
    Alma Redemptoris Mater 17
    America, The Beautiful 18
    Angelus Domini Nuntiavit 19
    Angels We Have Heard On High 20
    Anima Christi 20
    As With Gladness Men Of Old 21
    Stabat Mater (At The Cross Her Station Keeping) 22
    At The Lamb’s High Feast We Sing 24
    Attende Domine 24
    Ave Maria 25
    Ave Verum 26
    Battle Hymn Of The Republic 26
    Be Joyful Mary 27
    Benedicam Dominum 27
    Bethlehem Of Noblest Cities 28
    Christ The Lord Is Risen Today 28
    Come Holy Ghost 29
    Come Thou Almighty King 29
    Come Thou Long Expected Jesus 30
    Come Ye Thankful People Come 30
    Comfort Comfort Ye My People 31
    Conditor Alme Siderum / Creator Of The Stars At Night 32
    Corde Natus / Of The Fathers Love Begotten 33
    Crown Him With Many Crowns 34
    Dear Angel Ever At My Side 35
    Draw Nigh And Take The Body Of The Lord 35
    Dulcis Iesu Memoria 36
    Faith Of Our Fathers 37
    Firmly I Believe And Truly 37
    The First Noel 38
    For The Beauty Of The Earth 39
    Forty Days And Forty Nights 39
    Glory Be To Jesus 40
    The Glory Of These Forty Days 40
    God Of Our Fathers 41
    Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above 41
    Hark The Herald Angels Sing 42
    Have Mercy Lord On Us 43
    Holy God We Praise Thy Name 43
    Holy Holy Holy 44
    I’ll Sing A Hymn To Mary 44
    Immaculate Mary 45
    The King Of Love My Shepherd Is 46
    Jerusalem My Happy Home 46
    Jesus Christ Is Risen Today 47
    Jesus My Lord My God My All 47
    Joy To The World 48
    Let All Mortal Flesh 48
    Lift Up Your Heads Ye Mighty Gates 49
    Lo How A Rose ‘Er Blooming 49
    Lord Who Throughout These Forty Days 50
    Love Divine All Loves Excelling 50
    Misericordia Domini 51
    My Country Tis Of Thee 51
    My Shepherd Will Supply My Need 52
    Now Thank We All Our God 52
    O Come Divine Messiah 53
    O Come O Come Emmanuel 54
    O God Of Lovliness 54
    O Jesus We Adore Thee 55
    O Lord I Am Not Worthy 56
    O Mary Of Graces 56
    O Queen Of The Holy Rosary 57
    O Sacred Head Surrounded 58
    O Salutaris Hostia 58
    O Salutaris Hostia 58
    O Saving Victim 59
    O Sanctissima 59
    O Most Holy One 59
    O Sons And Daughters 59
    O Thou Immortal Holy Light 60
    On Jordans Bank 61
    Once In Royal Davids City 61
    Pange Lingua 62
    Panis Angelicus 63
    Praise God From Whom All Blessing Flow 63
    Praise My Soul The King Of Heaven 64
    Praise The Lord Ye Heavens Adore Him 64
    Praise To The Lord The Almighty 65
    Puer Natus 66
    Regina Caeli 67
    Resonet In Laudibus 67
    Salve Regina (Simple Tone) 68
    Savior Of The Nations Come 68
    Silent Night 69
    Sing Praise To God Who Reigns Above 69
    Songs Of Thankfulness And Praise 70
    Soul Of My Savior 71
    Soul Of My Savior 71
    Sub Tuum Praesidium 71
    Stars Of The Morning 72
    The Star Spangled Banner 73
    Stella Caeli Exsterpavit 74
    That Eastertide With Joy Was Bright 74
    The Strife Is Oer 75
    Tantum Ergo 75
    What Child Is This 76
    What Wondrous Love Is This 77
    When Morning Gilds The Sky 78
    Ye Watchers And Ye Holy Ones 79
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    This hum dinger is ready to print. I will announce cost soon.
    22 Ordinary Selections
    108 Hymns & Antiphons
    Total Selections - 130
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 193
    Out of curiosity, why is Mass VIII the only setting for which you've included the Gloria?
    Thanked by 1toddevoss
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Good point. I was creating this hymnal for NO celebrations which rarely sing the Gloria if at all, but I think you are right that they would be included for TLMs. I will include them today.

    If anyone sees a glaring omission, please comment here... and remember, customization is very easy to do, adding or subtracting selections is no problem.
  • Parce Domine? That's what I noticed immediately.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    @liampmcdonough
    o wow... definitely... that was on my original list... thanks for the reminder

    I am going to review my original list one more time just to double check for anything else.

    Uugghhh.... I also missed
    Attende Domine
    Christ the Lord Is Risen Today (Alternate Tune: Victimae Paschali)
    Victimae Paschali Laudes (Gregorian Chant)
    Mass XVIII (ferias of advent and lent)
    Kyrie XVI
    Kyrie XVIII (weekdays)
    Noel Nouvelet (with the following beautiful text)

    1. Noël nouvelet, sing we a new Noël;
    Thank we now our God, and of His goodness tell;
    Sing we Noël to greet the new born King;
    Noël nouvelet, a new Noël we sing!

    2. Waking from my sleep, a vision came to me;
    For before my eyes there stood a flow'ring tree,
    Where on a bright red rosebud I did see.
    Noël nouvelet, a new Noël sing we!

    3. How my heart did glow, with inward joy divine!
    For with rays of glory did the rosebud shine,
    As when the sun doth blaze on break of day.
    This new Noël sing we: Noël nouvelet!

    4. Then a tiny bird ceased joyous song to say
    Unto certain shepherds: "Haste you now away!
    In Bethlehem the newborn Lamb you'll see."
    Noël nouvelet, a new Noël sing we!et!

    5. Mary and Joseph in Bethl'em they found,
    Where the Infant lay, with ox and ass around,
    And for a crib, their manger full of hay.
    This new Noël sing we: Noël nouvelet!

    6. So, upon my bed, I saw these wonders all,
    Dreaming of a Child, an Infant Child so small:
    Jesus of Naz'reth, called a King to be.
    Noël nouvelet, a new Noël sing we!

    Going to be a couple of more days...
    Thanked by 1bhcordova
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    OK... another update on Index

    KYRIALE
    Lex Et Origo (Paschal Time) 1
    Kyrie 1
    Sanctus 1
    Gloria 1
    Cunctípotens Génitor Déus (Ordinary Feast) 2
    Agnus 2
    Kyrie 2
    Gloria 2
    Sanctus 3
    De Angelis (Second Class Feasts) 4
    Agnus 4
    Kyrie 4
    Gloria 4
    Sanctus 5
    Cum Jubílo (Feasts Of The Blessed Virgin Mary) 6
    Agnus 6
    Kyrie 6
    Gloria 6
    Sanctus 7
    Orbis Factor (Sundays Throughout The Year) 8
    Agnus 8
    Kyrie 8
    Gloria 8
    Sanctus 9
    Agnus 9
    Kyrie 10
    Kyrie 10
    Kyrie: Sundays Of Advent 10
    Kyrie: Sundays Of Lent 10
    Sanctus, Agnus: Sundays Of Advent & Lent 10
    Sanctus 10
    Credo Iii 11
    Agnus 11
    Credo (Ambrosian) 13

    HYMNS & ANTIPHONS
    Adestes Fideles / O Come All Ye Faithful 15
    English Translation 15
    Adóro Te Devóte 16
    Alas And Did My Savior Bleed 17
    Alleluia, Sing To Jesus 18
    All Creatures Of Our God And King 18
    All My Heart This Night Rejoices 19
    All People That On Earth Do Dwell 20
    Alleluia Lapis Revolutus 21
    Alma Redemptoris Mater 21
    America, The Beautiful 22
    Angelus Domini Nuntiavit 23
    Angels We Have Heard On High 24
    Anima Christi 24
    As With Gladness Men Of Old 25
    Stabat Mater (At The Cross Her Station Keeping) 26
    At The Lamb’s High Feast We Sing 28
    Attende Domine 28
    Ave Maria 29
    Ave Verum 30
    Battle Hymn Of The Republic 30
    Be Joyful Mary 31
    Benedicam Dominum 31
    Bethlehem Of Noblest Cities 32
    Christ The Lord Is Risen Today 32
    Christ The Lord Is Risen Today 33
    Come Holy Ghost 33
    Come Thou Almighty King 34
    Come Thou Long Expected Jesus 34
    Come Ye Thankful People Come 35
    Comfort Comfort Ye My People 35
    Conditor Alme Siderum / Creator Of The Stars At Night 36
    Corde Natus / Of The Fathers Love Begotten 37
    Crown Him With Many Crowns 38
    Dear Angel Ever At My Side 39
    Draw Nigh And Take The Body Of The Lord 39
    Dulcis Iesu Memoria 40
    Faith Of Our Fathers 41
    Firmly I Believe And Truly 41
    The First Noel 42
    For The Beauty Of The Earth 43
    Forty Days And Forty Nights 43
    Glory Be To Jesus 44
    The Glory Of These Forty Days 44
    God Of Our Fathers 45
    Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above 45
    Hark The Herald Angels Sing 46
    Have Mercy Lord On Us 47
    Holy God We Praise Thy Name 47
    Holy Holy Holy 48
    I’ll Sing A Hymn To Mary 48
    Immaculate Mary 49
    The King Of Love My Shepherd Is 50
    Jerusalem My Happy Home 50
    Jesus Christ Is Risen Today 51
    Jesus My Lord My God My All 51
    Joy To The World 52
    Let All Mortal Flesh 52
    Lift Up Your Heads Ye Mighty Gates 53
    Lo How A Rose ‘Er Blooming 53
    Lord Who Throughout These Forty Days 54
    Love Divine All Loves Excelling 54
    Misericordia Domini 55
    My Country Tis Of Thee 55
    My Shepherd Will Supply My Need 56
    Now Thank We All Our God 56
    Noël Nouvelet 57
    O Come Divine Messiah 58
    O Come O Come Emmanuel 58
    O God Of Lovliness 59
    O Jesus We Adore Thee 60
    O Lord I Am Not Worthy 60
    O Mary Of Graces 61
    O Queen Of The Holy Rosary 62
    O Sacred Head Surrounded 62
    O Salutaris Hostia 63
    O Salutaris Hostia 63
    O Saving Victim 63
    O Sanctissima 64
    O Most Holy One 64
    O Sons And Daughters 64
    O Thou Immortal Holy Light 65
    On Jordans Bank 66
    Once In Royal Davids City 66
    Pange Lingua 67
    Panis Angelicus 68
    Parce Domine 68
    Praise God From Whom All Blessing Flow 69
    Praise My Soul The King Of Heaven 69
    Praise The Lord Ye Heavens Adore Him 70
    Praise To The Lord The Almighty 70
    Puer Natus 71
    Regina Caeli 72
    Resonet In Laudibus 72
    Salve Regina (Simple Tone) 73
    Savior Of The Nations Come 74
    Silent Night 74
    Sing Praise To God Who Reigns Above 75
    Songs Of Thankfulness And Praise 75
    Soul Of My Savior 76
    Soul Of My Savior 76
    Sub Tuum Praesidium 77
    Stars Of The Morning 77
    The Star Spangled Banner 78
    Stella Caeli Exsterpavit 79
    That Eastertide With Joy Was Bright 79
    The Strife Is Oer 80
    Tantum Ergo 80
    What Child Is This 81
    Victimae Paschalis 82
    English Translation 82
    What Wondrous Love Is This 83
    When Morning Gilds The Sky 84
    Ye Watchers And Ye Holy Ones 85
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Here is a very low res preview to give you an idea of the layout and content.

    It looks like I am moving this to a Perfect Binding as it is too large for saddle stitching. However, the cost will not be too much more than I originally thought. The final size is 6 x 9, comparable to other hymnals.

    I may do a condensed version that has a maximum of three or four verses per hymn which would reduce it to 50-60 pages which could then be saddle stitched.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    first three pages, inside credit and TOC
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Does everyone here prefer page numbers or hymn numbers?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    St Cecilia and the Blessed Virgin Mary will be those to whom this hymnal is dedicated. I will be meeting with a priest who will give it a solemn blessing before it goes to print. Please pray the prayer attached. Please Add mention of “The Traditional Hymnal” in your prayer. Thank you! Blessed be the hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

    Alpha run will be ten copies.
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 212
    For actual hymns, yes a number is preferable. The Mass section IMO should have page number since the Kyriale doesn’t fall under the hymn category.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,366
    Many Orders of Service/Kyriales include at some point the word "or", making hymn numbers preferable.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Richard

    Can you clarify? I don’t understand your comment.
    Thanked by 1PhilipPowell
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,366
    If you only put page numbers there's no way to specify which Memorial Accl. on a hymn board, for example. For the same reason O Come and Adeste need separate numbers.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Got it

    However with this hymnal there are only a few pages where this would apply. Namely the ad Libitum Kyrie and Adeste Fideles.., therefore is it desiresble or wise to even introduce another whole set of numbers for those handful of selections? For example, with the introduction of the English (organ intro) or Latin hymn (Incipit), it is self evident. Same with Kyrie.

    A couple of other things... perhaps include Ite of each Mass and some ad libitum Alleluia.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,366
    There's not much wisdom in having more than one numbering, true. Since you speak of a choir harmony and organ accompaniment edition in the future, how is that ever going to work with page- instead of hymn-numbers?
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 152
    Will this be sold via Lulu? How will one purchase the standard copy?
  • In Shape Note tradition you say "on the top" or "on the bottom" with the page number, when (as usual but not always) there are two tunes on a page.

    So Amazing Grace is 45t or 45 on the top in the (1844) Sacred Harp.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Ummm... 45 is on the board... the organ intro begins... you can pick which text you want to sing to what the organist is playing, 45t or 45b... it would be very hard to believe that there is anyone who can’t figure out which hymn is to be sung... it’s akin to the mentality of airplane arms at the ambo...
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,700
    Well @francis I think you overestimate the mental agility of a congregation - every week we read the introit together lead by the lector. Every week this is followed by a hymn. Every week 20% of the congregation has looked at the board, and found their place in the hymn book. 40% neither sing nor look at the text. When the organ begins to play: every week around 20% of the congregation after a period of cogitation come to the idea that this might presage a hymn (another 20% are only struck by this idea when singing actually begins), every week they discover anew that there is a hymn book in front of them in the slot provided for this purpose, every week they discover anew that the number is displayed on the hymn boards. The result is that by the end of the first verse the volume of singing is double the initial volume.
    Curiously, by the end of Mass, most can respond speedily to the recessional hymn.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    @a_f_hawkins

    I really am not overestimating anything. I am simply a realist to the core.

    What you put forward is the norm for normal people in normal Masses. I would never expect any more than that (and I would not demand it)... only politely invite people to participate if they are willing... (AND NEVER BEFORE MASS AT A MIC!... only in the bulletin or a hymnsing). With the TLM where people are not required, expected or encouraged to sing, I expect even less, and rightly so. However, for those who wish to, there is a tool. Those who wish to will easily figure out whether it is 45t or 45b. Mentioning t or b will increase no more particpation than if you flashed the lyrics on a wall with a projector. That, my dear friend, is the reality of the hymman (new pun word) condition. Therefore, the whole idea of a hymnboard is only meant for those who wish to use it. That will differ from congregation to congregation, local tradition to local tradition, habit to habit, to dust you shall return.

    Therefore the whole thing about hymn numbers just seems to be a waste of time, however, I am all ears and will readily be convinced otherwise if someone convinces me.

    Thank you for your perspective!

    In terms of the choir having different numbers, they had better be prepared to sing what they practiced that week at rehearsal when I gave them the playlist. If they are looking at a hymnboard during Mass to figure out and see what they are supposed to be singing, then they deserve their own ignorance. Football players know the play in the huddle... we don't tell them the play when they are on the line of scrimage.

    Personally, I have had great success in having singing congregations (usually growing to 60-75% over time)... it usually takes two to three years using only a selection of the best hymns (pretty much the ones in the present hymnal I am promoting) consistently throughout the seasons. I don't expect this to be true with TLM goers... they are a much more diverse bunch and much more reserved... in fact, we only sing hymns before and after Mass (vernacular is not encouraged during the liturgy), and rarely is the congregation involved. It's the nature of the (F)east.

    With all that being said, the beauty of POD (print on demand) is that I can adjust the printing of any request for hymnals (hymn numbers with t, b and even m!, if you want!), delete hymns, delete the Kyriale section, add more hymns, etc. etc. etc. Of course, all requests must be entirely in the Public Domain, or from authors who are willing to contribute to the same.

    The hymnal I will be producing for myself (and my congregation) will also include traditional folk songs, and the title will be something akin to "A Catholic Hymnal and Songbook". Again, your situation will dictate the content according to your particular needs and wants.

    It's a beautiful thing, this singing thing, ya know!
  • CGM
    Posts: 525
    Comment and question:
    — I suggest that all the verses should be numbered in all the songs, especially since intermediate verses frequently begin in the bottom of the left column and then conclude in the top of the right column. Someone who is unfamiliar with a particular hymn may be confused about where a verse begins. In some cases, the verses are numbered, typically for hymns with ten or more verses; the hymnal should be consistent throughout in numbering all verses of all the hymns.
    — Will there be an index (or indices) in the back that lists composers and lyricists? Such info is absent from all the pages in the preview, presumably to save space. I suppose that as a hymnal containing all public-domain stuff, there are no royalties to pay and no copyrights to list. Even so, it's always a good idea to credit those people who created the hymns in the first place.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    @CGM

    I admire your sentiment for noting credits to authorship, but that would be a customization I would be willing to undertake should someone request it.

    The reason I include verse numbers on lengthier hymns and not the shorter ones is so that a specific selection of verses can be chosen if desired (eg., 3,7,9,10)

    My goal and intention is to produce the most basic hymnal (the one posted with alphabetical TOC) from which point anyone could request additions, deletions, custom cover, etc. As I mentioned earlier on, I Intend to produce a version of this hymnal that is even smaller (saddle stitched) and has a maximum of 3 to 4 versus which will be titled “The Pocket Hymnal” and could be reduced in size proportionately. (eg., 4.5 x 6.75, 3.3 x 5, Etc. NOTE... content will all be reduced in size)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    @CGM

    I went back and looked at the hymnal and am including verse numbers as you suggested since there are many hymns that have numerous verses. Thank you.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    UPDATE

    Here is the front matter for The Tradtional Hymnal which I am going to publish in the next week or so.
  • CGM
    Posts: 525
    "A Choir Edition is intended to be offered in the not to distant future"

    shouldn't that be "not too distant" ?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Yes...

    (No one has proofed this yet)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    @toddevoss

    I have print houses that I deal with directly. All purchases will be through my company, Teton Craft Works, LLC.
    Thanked by 1toddevoss
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 152
    So is it ready for orders to be placed? Link?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,546
    Getting closer Todd... do you have a deadline for ordering? (got delayed as school began last week and time taken to teaching, etc.)
  • toddevoss
    Posts: 152
    No deadline. Just wondering.