Ignorance...Inexcusable...
  • I sit here irked because the OCP liturgy magazine thing that arrived fails to recognize CMAA in its list of valuable resources.

    And that their editors give the Roman Catholic Church "Now Thank We All Our God" instead of:

    Praise we our God with joy,
    And gladness never ending.
    Angels and Saints with us
    Their grateful voices blending,
    He is our Father dear,
    O'erfilled with Parents' love;
    Mercies unsought, unknown,
    He showers from above.

    The text in Catholic hymnals in the 1890's.

    A letter thanking the of this hymnal editor is signed:

    From the Vatican, June 8th, 1898.
    LEO XIII. , POPE.

    And from the introduction from the editors:

    The Editors have had great pleasure in producing, some for
    the first time, many fine tunes by English Catholic composers,
    notably the celebrated "Angelus ad Virginem" (No. 18), taken
    from a I3th century manuscript in the British Museum. This
    exquisite melody, immortalized by Chaucer, was discovered
    within recent years by the late Henry Bradshaw, University
    Librarian at Cambridge. For the transcript here published the
    Editors have to thank Mr. H. Ellis Wooldridge. One or two
    compositions by William Byrd are also given. Byrd remained
    faithful to the Catholic faith in times of persecution, and at the
    age of 80, in 1622, said in his will : "That I may live and die a
    true and perfect member of His Holy Catholic Church, without
    which I believe there is no salvation for me." Thomas Tallis was
    godfather to William Byrd's son, Thomas Byrd, and no one
    can doubt but that he also held to the old faith. Under No. 99
    will be found a very fine composition by Samuel Wesley, son
    of Charles Wesley, and nephew of the celebrated John Wesley.
    Samuel Wesley became a Catholic and wrote a Coronation Mass
    for Pope Clement XI. Another good English Catholic composer,
    whose works appear here in some quantity for the first
    time, is R. L. de Pearsall. Through the kindness of his
    daughter the Editors have had access to a considerable collection
    of his hymn -tunes. To this list of English Catholic
    musicians must be added the name of the late W. S. Rockstro,
    with whom the Editors were associated for some time when
    this work first began, and whose profound knowledge has done
    much in England towards the restoration of early sacred music.
    In returning thanks for help the Editors recognise how wide
    and deep are their obligations.

    [editors who realize their obligations...]
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Ouch. Looking at that text hurts my brain trying to think how the textual accents match up with the music.
  • Yes, and Now Thank We, All, Our God does the same exact thing...well, when you look at it, it doesn't fit at all.

    Now thank, we, all our God?
    Now, thank, we, all, our God?
    Now thank we, all, our God?
    Now thank, we all, our God?
    Now thank we, all our, God.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,997
    Frogman,

    I'm not sure why you think this is an excellent text. It does have the metrical problems that Gavin mentions, and it is rather trite. As poetry it is unexceptional at best.

    However, it has the Catholic advantage of testifying to the permeability of the firmament, to the common worship of angels and saints and us. The marvelous interaction between heaven and earth: that's a giant step above what we see in Now Thank We All Our God!
  • I agree fully with Gavin, and with Kathy's assessment of the rather amateurish effort at what would be a more Catholic substitute. I do not agree that there is anything at all wrong, as literature or theology, with Nun danket as originally written.
    If people do not like a given hymn or choral they do not have to sing it; but to butcher someone else's work and fain that it has been improved is inexcusable.
    There are several things wrong with this (presumably) 'more Catholic' offering: 1)'Angels and Saints with us/Their grateful voices blending' is not a sentence; 2) 'He is our Father dear/O'erfilled with Parents' love' is just too trite, and, Parents' should read Parent's; and 3) there are the metrical and accentual problems already mentioned.
    There is a disturbing, troublingly ultramontane, misled spiritual pride which faults the singing of quite Catholic texts because they were written by non-Catholics who happen to share with us at least some thread of Catholic truth (should not this be cause for delight?). There is nothing clever or heroic here - only a lamentable narrowness.
  • "disturbing, troublingly ultramontane, misled spiritual pride which faults the singing of quite Catholic texts because they were written by non-Catholics who happen to share with us at least some thread of Catholic truth"

    Interesting...examples?

    -------------
    Yes, Kathy, that's what I saw...glad to have someone put it into words.

    However, it has the Catholic advantage of testifying to the permeability of the firmament, to the common worship of angels and saints and us. The marvelous interaction between heaven and earth: that's a giant step above what we see in Now Thank We All Our God!

    .............
    Gavin...sure it's not from eating a Slurpee too fast? :) (frogs have no noses...)
  • The English Hymnal is full of them, as is The Hymnal 1940, Worship III, The Catholic Hymn Book, A Plainsong Hymnbook, & cet., & cet.
    I ask you (tongue in cheek) if, when you sing 'Praise We Our God With Joy', you sing it to that... that Protestant tune??? Those heretical notes????
    In all fairness, one might observe that the catalogue of Catholic hymns that do not address the converse between saints, angels, and us, or do not have as their subject matter the permeability of the firmament, would yield a very, very, long list. So this faulting of Nun danket on these accounts is hardly apt or pertinent.
    (Pax vobis.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,677
    Here's the whole hymn, for what it's worth (PDF attached). I don't think it would be very pretty, though. What would an average congregation do with lines that end on "joy" or "dear"?

    Fwiw, Montani wrote another tune for it (#141 in the St Gregory Hymnal), and he changed "Parents' love" to "Father's love".
  • Interesting! Parents' is still wrong.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,997
    Stepping back from the issues of this hymn or that, and from the labels of Protestant and Catholic, I would like to mention that imho the main defect of the liturgical thinking since the Council has been an inadequate acknowledgment of what I call the permeability of the firmament. Whether or not a liturgical hymn or prayer actually says anything about angels and saints is unimportant. What is important is this: liturgical texts should not sound like busness memos to the Parent Company.

    Sometimes the problem is in the translation:
    -"Te igitur clementissime Pater" is the murmur of a trusting child.
    -"We come to you, Father, with praise and thanksgiving" is an informative memorandum to the Boss.

    Sometimes, as the work of Lauren Pristas has shown, the problem is in the postconciliar prayers themselves.

    Sometimes the problem is the rather transparent attempt to advance a social agenda using liturgical texts, including hymns. I think we"ve all gotten past the problem of vox dei. We can sing in God's voice (at least those of us who sang the intrioit Resurrexi yesterday did)--but we should not put words into His mouth as if he were not here speaking and helping us to hear. Fortunately this kind of nonsense is less likely now than it was a decade ago, although major hymn writing contests are still held on "topics" such as the environment.
    God will give you absolution/ when you stop all this pollution...
  • Amen! and Amen! Thus, the awaited translation cannot reach us too soon... a genuine sense of liturgical style and cadence, verbal imagination and colour, literate English and faithfulness to Magistrerial Truth which can stand alongside that of the Anglican Use. This should set an infectuous example to those with the other agendas of which Kathy speaks. Come Quickly!
  • Chironomo
    Posts: 29
    The textual accent issues are not any more troublesome than many "retrofitted" hymns end up being. One of the more humorous is an M.D Ridge (ughh..) text set to LASST UNS ERFREUEN.

    God, who created hearts to love, Show-'ring all blessings from above; Alleluia! Alleluia!
    Give those who come to you with praise, Peace love and laughter all their days; Alleluia...etc

    Jesus at Cana gave a sign, Turning the water into wine, Alleluia! Alleluia!
    Sign that continues as he said - Love, living, risen from the dead; Alleluia...etc..

    I still can't figure out what the last line even means, but the long notes on "Show.." of showering and "turn-" of turning is enough to produce the desired result of inducing laughter...
  • Chironomo, is the ad hominem "ughh" really necessary here? Your point is well taken; does that inclusion abet it? Your call.