Is the attendance at your service growing? If so, tell us what is working.
  • Hello Friends,

    I have been asked by my boss to interview a colleague with a traditional service that is growing to see if there are any approaches that our staff may borrow. I am filing this under "General Discussion" because I'm specifically asking about the number of the worshiping body at each mass (bottoms in pews), not necessarily the number in the music program (our music program is currently in an upswing). Sure, I understand that this approach is seriously flawed. Every situation is different. However, the question has been asked and I must respond.

    So, have you experienced a surge lately?
    If so, what can you attribute it to?
    What do you find damaging to a worshiping body? (Go ahead, let it all out.)
    Are there any parishes/music programs you're a fan of that we may all learn from?
    Have you brought a service back from the brink or built a service from scratch that is thriving?

    Thanks in advance for your help!

  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,145
    I know @Frogman has a story about this
  • Original poster,

    For the sake of some perspective, is your pastor considering taking his parish in a more Catholic way, and wants to know how to do it? Or, is your pastor trying to find ways to increase his already conservative parish?
  • On three fronts -

    1) SSPX chapel I attend is growing in families. Our choir has grown exponentially.
    2) Diocesan Latin Mass choir has welcomed two members. May not seem like much, but considering the short history of our group, this is providential.
    3) The chant group at my university has had the largest student-turn out, topping the last two year by at least double digits. We have enough women now that the rehearsals actually require sectional practices. We've begun our first recording project, mainly at the insistence of one of the student's initiative. That being the key word - a group is growing when initiative isn't limited to one person or small group.

    In each of these groups, there are two old adages I keep in mind to help keep the group growing as well as to keep it fresh
    1) It's not about goals, it's not about concepts - it's about people. Not in an anthropocentric sense, hell no. It's about realizing the souls you come in contact with, and the beauties of the Faith which you are imparting to them, and helping to make it their own as well. This is how we grow up the Mystical Body of Christ. (In many senses it is the Salesian model - putting a "happy face" on orthodoxy.)
    2) As C.S. Lewis said, "don't try to be original. Be honest. Then originality will follow naturally." Don't try to be an innovator. Be faithful. Be honest. It's at that point when God really allows your natural talents to flow through and express themselves.

  • have you experienced a surge lately?

    If so, what can you attribute it to?
    As Stimson says, our families grow.
    Also, souls faced with banality and various degrees of pseudo-semi-quasi-neo-Protestantism must react somehow; every time a new innovation is introduced in the ‘progressive’ places, people leave and come to us.

    What do you find damaging to a worshiping body?

    Seriously? Starvation of the sheep; abandonment of timeless Catholic prayer and worship for social progressivism – and worse.

    Are there any parishes/music programs you're a fan of that we may all learn from?

    as to parishes, the history of Saint-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet in Paris comes to mind.
    Music, as basic as it is, is actually secondary. Music programs may draw souls, but it’s the liturgy, and what flows from that, that holds them.

    Have you […] built a service from scratch that is thriving?

    (Curious question. how does one 'build' a Catholic "service" ?) As for music, we have grown from a repertoire of one Kyriale to five, from <40 pcs of polyphony to maybe 150, and still building.<br />
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I hate Strunk and White, but I'd redo-
    worshipping body
    a fan of
    service...on the brink....built from scratch"
    in order to avoid running the questions up a flagpole to see.....
  • Walsingham is growing by literal leaps and bounds. We must build a larger cathedral. All five week-end masses are almost packed and they keep coming. All we are doing is celebrating mass ad orientem without cantors and announcers, singing hymnody, chant, polyphony and modern anthems. Our choirs wear choir habit (cassocks and surplices), and our sacred ministers wear vestments that actually have bona fide Christian symbolism embroidered all over them. Our homilies are superb, and our priests and deacons shamelessly chant everything. Not a soul leaves before mass is ended. I did, though, read somewhere some years ago that churches that are filled up don't grow - meaning, I suppose, that people prefer some 'elbow room'. I must say that Walsingham seems exempt from that observation. (Oh, and Walsingham is cruciform, not ampitheatrical.)

    I might add that we have a very generous representation of all age groups, singles, young families with children, lots of adolescents, and more mature people, men and women alike. Our youth just recently did a production of Much Ado About Nothing, and are quite active and dedicated. Our mass servers are dedicated, numerous, and are all male. We have a good number of instituted acolytes and instituted lectors. I could go on... We are now planning to build a Catholic high school on our campus. The proposed core subjects would make any musician drool (we take music and the arts very seriously), and bring a smile to anyone's face who values classical liberal arts and classical Catholic education - all informed by the English spiritual patrimony.

    (Oh, and we don't have pew cushions or any carpeting at all - except for a beautiful oriental carpet in front of the altar.)
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 873
    ("...without announcers..." !
    Our parish does have announcements prior to every Mass, and they haven't changed in... a good while. I'm not sure that they are/were at all necessary, when they say what's in the bulletin, anyway, or just say that we don't do the "sign of peace" during Mass.)
  • Here's a thought:

    The orders and institutes and fraternities which have more vocations than they can house are well known for not making it up on their own. They teach what the Church teaches, and they're joyful doing so.
  • Instituted acolytes and instituted lectors. That is a terrifically good thing. I wish this practice were everywhere.
  • We sing straight from the Roman Gradual, except when a priest requests the Responsorial Psalm in English, in which case we us a simple chant setting of the Psalm.
    However, we have ushers at the beginning of Mass give translations of everything we sing in latin:
  • jefe
    Posts: 192
    Attendance at your service? In our tiny Gold Rush Episcopal Parish; slight upswing due to new, young Priest with a wonderful cantoring voice and great Homily chops. At Compline with one of our four Compline choirs; huge upswing. The late night office, patterned after the style of the late Peter Hallock, kind of a Roman-Anglican harmonized-version is the absolute best outreach we have. As a result many who came to Compline now attend Mass. More than half of the Compline choir members are not from our Parish. A full 2/3's of the attendees are not members of the Parish; maybe not even believers but respond to what i call 'facing your God in the dark for short trial run with candles'. For some, this is as close as they get to the Mass. Compline, or the completion is the final short prayer service of the Monastic day and strips bare our own mortality and increases our humility. It has a way of making us face our own death. We try to produce a mystical service that touches one not in the here and now, but in a separate continuum of saints and sinners with no connection to the woes of the world. The soothing, simple format and periods of silence offer a sober, 25 minute platform for inner peace and the oh-so Roman "examination of conscience". Peter Hallock, my mentor, told me that all may fall away over time from compline except the chanting of the Psalms. Dead center in the office, and an important anchor is the chanting of, "In manus tuas, Domine, commendo spiritum meum", some of the last words spoken by Jesus on the cross, probably in Aramaic, and some of the last personal rites afforded to people on their deathbed.
  • Jefe,

    Given that it's an Episcopal Church you're describing, who calls it Mass?
  • jefe
    Posts: 192
    half of our Compline choir members are Roman, so this makes them feel at home. Also, our exiting priest was an orthodox Anglican and closet Roman and called it Mass. He was also fond of saying, "In the end, we're all Catholics." I hope this is not cultural appropriation. (I am 1/64th Mohawk, I'm told, but not flashing my headdress) The freedom I receive, and it's a gift, from just doing Compline at Holy Trinity Episcopal Church is the ability to cherry pick the best and most effective parts of the Anglican and Roman traditions, not the protocol prescribed by either hierarchy. Every decision I've made in my life has pointed me in the direction of Compline. Now, in the 11th hour, it's all I do. I was director of the Moravian Trombone Choir (sssaaatttbbbcb, up to 100 players) for 25 years and spent much of my life composing and doing arrangements for this unusual renaissance instrumentation. Combine that with my 35 years of church choir conducting and add being adequate in Sibelius. The fact is, there was lots of carryover of style and substance when I finally came to Compline. Mass? Service? Order? My only built in bias is to make it work. jefe
  • ...who calls it...
    It is not at all uncommon for an Anglican-Episcopalian to 'call it mass'. And as many as call it that believe it to be that, believe in the sacrifice and the objective real presence. There are fewer genuine Anglo-Catholic or Tractarian parishes or dioceses than there used to be, but those which do remain would make you think Catholic. Alas, they have everything but the magisterium, which proves to be their downfall, or sidelines them as a (large) minority in the church-at-large.

    We should weep and pray for those that have 'kept the faith' - not sneer at them.
    (Blessed is the man...that hath not sat in the seat of the scornful - Ps. I)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Jefe, Jackson,

    As a former Episcopalian myself, I was taught (by both sides, since many Catholics did their duty at the Cathedral and then came to sing beautiful music at the Episcopal Cathedral just 2 blocks away) that Mass was what those Catholics called it, and ours was specifically not the Mass.
  • Chris -

    Yes, there ARE those Episcopalians with attitudes such as you describe. They have little regard not only for Catholics, but also for their fellow Anglicans who are of a Catholic mind.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,349
    Alas, they have everything but the magisterium,...

    Will someone tell me when Apostolicae Curae was rescinded? Did I miss it? I think it is still official Catholic teaching. So, if that's the case, the Catholic position is that Anglicans and Episcopalians are lacking a lot more than the teaching office of bishops. They're lacking validly ordained bishops, period. And that leads to a hosts of other "lacks." But they do have valid baptism. And lots of great music. But having a "Catholic mind" does not make a valid Mass.
  • Fr Krisman, with all due respect -

    There are some 'valid masses' said these days which I would have difficulty, great difficulty, participating in were they the last mass on earth. And, we all know about Apostolicae Curae and valid versus invalid orders, don't we. Too, we can all observe that 'valid orders' are no bulwark against heresy and deplorable liturgical praxis, can't we! Nor do we have to cast our eyes very far to see that there are many validly ordered folk of all ranks in the Catholic Church, many of them hardly distinguishable from heretics, who haven't, really, a 'Catholic mind' at all, that squeak by only, only, because of ex opere operato and 'valid orders'. I'll say it again - Anglo-Catholics of the Tractarian and Oxford movement heritage are deserving of much more than some Catholics' proudful loathing and contempt. You may very well get to sit next to some of them in heaven. I hope that you are so fortunate. I am Catholic - and I pray daily that they will be there. Would you join me in a prayer for their souls?

    I said it above.
    It seems to bear repeating -
    Blessed is the man... that hath not sat in the seat of the scornful. - Ps. I.i
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins CHGiffen
  • Jackson,
    Your points (all of them in the last two posts) are well made and worthy of serious consideration. More's the pitty that a valid Mass can be said so badly and a non-valid Mass can be executed with such beauty. Then again, Our Lord, scourged, is really God, and Judas, 30 pieces of silver or no, is still NOT God.

    Pope Benedict gave us great gifts: Summorum Pontificum and Anglicanorum Coetibus, which will go down as far greater examples of pastoral solicitude than Franciscan Synods. We must pray for the return of those separated from the Church, so that they may return to their Mother, and we must pray for renewed holiness in the members of the Body of Christ. Imagine a vernacular Mass with music by Bairstow, Howells, Gibbons and Tallis…… Love them both!

    (Oh, oops, you don't have to imagine that. You can realize it. In fact, you might do so on a weekly basis.)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Your points are well taken, Chris -
    Though I'm not sure that the scourging of Christ in the Roman praetorium and the 'scourging of Christ' through a reprehensible mass are exact parallels. In fact, it seems to me that a mass that is a 'scourging' of Christ is some sort of perverted mass, indeed. (And we have plenty of them these days, don't we!) Interesting try, though. It does bear contemplation. We, his post-Passion believers are charged to praise him fitly and lift him up, not scourge him anew through 'valid' self-centred entertainment posing as liturgy.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Our attendance is good and growing over time. However, keep in mind that we are the conservative parish in town and the people who are with us are there because that is where they want to be. We are not for everyone.
  • Jackson,

    I accept that we're not supposed to re-scourge Our Lord, especially not as an intentional part of the Liturgy. All I meant by that was this: when we execute the "worship" of God in a manner which is much more evidently the worship of our own selves, we present to the world a nearly-unrecognizable God, as if we don't really believe what the Church teaches about God.

    Here are some more analogies: a wife who beats her husband (remember who's the bride and who's the groom) may still be actually married to him. The fact that the shack-ups in the next house over appear to treat each other better makes adultery and fornication look good, and even preferable to actual marriage. The shack-ups are, nevertheless, not married. (Hence, to mix an analogy with a news story, Amoris Laetitia's great dis-service to the Church and the Truth, but I digress).

    A pipe organ is a pipe organ is a pipe organ, even a badly maintained one and one played by a nearly incompetent organist; a simulacrum is just that, and even a beautiful, well-played instrument used to glorify God is... still a simulacrum.

    One shouldn't have to choose between beautiful and authentic worship of God.

    I'll go a step farther. Non-Catholic worship of God, such as is present in many Anglican parishes, may be acceptable to God AS FAR AS IT GOES, but it isn't the Mass.

  • Frogman Speaks.
    Read starting at Page 67.
    Knoxville 2009

    Any questions?

    This, incidentally, was not a job I applied for, nor did I want. Like the US Army, I was sort of drafted, unwillingly.

    Maybe it's true that bad things do happen to bad people!
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    It is depressing for one as myself to admit:

    1 Until the NO is abrogated I believe this WILL be the state of things at the Mass.

    2 I agree that “artistic excellence” does not an authentic Mass make.

    Here is an article by Dr. K.
  • “Until the NO is abrogated...”

    You’d probably have to wait until SSPV/X stages a coup d’etat on the papacy (probably around the time when pigs fly...).
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    “Until the NO is abrogated...”

    pfreese you are quite right the NO won't be abrogated, but as people across Europe are finding at the moment, your church may only have an NO Mass once a month (due to lack of priests). Meanwhile the large town has Mass every day in the EF with the NO only on Sundays from a priest travelling in.

    My Sister in law was working in France and she found that all the churches in the area had the EF, yes the regular priest who says the NO was on holiday and the only priest he can find to cover only celebrates the EF.

    In France 8 priests retire for each ordination... oh this only applies to the NO. While growing numbers are ordained for the Traditional orders.

    In many places in a few years time you will only be able to attend the NO Mass at 3pm every other month...
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Ok then... self eliminated.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    n many places in a few years time you will only be able to attend the NO Mass at 3pm every other month...

    Not the case in the U.S. It is the EF that is on the fringes. Yes, they may "do" an EF at Our Lady of the Levee every week, but the other 40 parishes in the diocese never have it. The best solution here is to improve the OF without letting it become what turned many off to the EF in the first place.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    improve the OF
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Use the OF, follow ALL the rubrics, Eucharistic Prayer 1, use good music and there is little difference. It's the innovations and options that can ruin it. Follow the book and you don't have those issues.

    Of course, the goofs with aluminum foil on their heads will complain, but who really cares?
    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I have observed a slow-but-steady growth of the EF here in southern Michigan. A lot of young priests in the area are offering it more frequently, particularly on special occasions, most recently on September 14.

    In one parish which offers both forms, OF twice (one ad orientem) and EF weekly, the EF attendance is often more than the other two combined. All major feasts are EF. The OF folks then attend.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Interesting. We are totally opposite that in the SE U.S. There is one EF in town each week, and it is not the largest or principal mass in the church where it is held. Regional difference? I don't know.
  • The EF in my area had a resurgence in the past decade or so, but it seems to have leveled off now. Meanwhile a lot of parishes have begun offering OF high masses, to the point that some former EF-goers have started going to those. Don’t get me wrong, I love the EF, but saying it’s the future of the Roman Rite is like saying Cole Porter is the future of music. It’ll probably continue to catch fire in some places while not in others.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW hilluminar
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,331
    Out of consideration for the user who posted the original question, can people please direct their answers ONLY to the specific questions asked? Please drop everything else.
    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • IdeK
    Posts: 79
    @tonjaw : there indeed is one ordination for eight burials of priests here in France. However, what will happen is not EF mass where there is now an OF mass.

    800 French priests die each year. The 20 to 25 EF priests ordained each year (including SSPX) won't replace them any more than the 80-100 OF ones.

    What will happen is no mass at all in most churches, and in lots of places it is already happening. I don't see what is hopeful in that.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    If you want to know if a surge has been experienced, not in my area. There was some growth initially, but I think now the people who want to go to an EF do so. The attendance is flat and not increasing.

    What is damaging to a worshiping body? With the EF group, they are kind of cliquish and cultish. Having an exclusive, if not superior, attitude doesn't play well with anyone else in the parish and the EF folks are generally disliked.

    Services back from the brink/built from scratch? No. A new associate pastor who had been driven out of everywhere else brought his EF group with him. He's now gone, but the group is still present with another priest who is actually doing well. However, the numbers are flat and the EF is not attracting new people, only the folks who would have gone to one anyway.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Ok then... self eliminated.

    To borrow a quote from Arnold Toynbee, civilizations - or in our case, I'd suppose you'd say cultures - don't die from murder. They die from suicide.

    but saying it’s the future of the Roman Rite is like saying Cole Porter is the future of music

    It's not just a matter of aesthetic preference. The inherent theologies behind each 'form' are as different as, well, night and day. Either 'form' could feature music that is de-lovely or de-plorable. Which 'form' features the Offertory prayers that emphasize sacrifice? "Where is the rite that late I fled"???

    (I can't really fit in a "Begin the Beguinage" joke, so I'll just mention the fun fact that Porter studied in Paris's Schola Cantorum with D'indy. Music without borders huzzah.)

    What is damaging to a worshiping body? With the EF group, they are kind of cliquish and cultish. Having an exclusive, if not superior, attitude doesn't play well with anyone else in the parish and the EF folks are generally disliked.

    Ahem. Perhaps, Charles, it is yet again a regional difference. The chapel I attend is run by the Sons of the Old Archbishop. A few years ago, I'd says your assessment was fairly accurate. But now, something's changed. My friend invited his grandparents to Mass, and they aren't the prim and proper type - Grandpa watches "Blazing Saddles" weekly, Grandma has visible tattoos, both are big motorcycle enthusiasts. Grandma told my friend afterwards, "Are you sure this is a Catholic church? I've never met so many friendly people."

    Anecdotal, I know. But they aren't alone in this feeling. So I pose this, my Byzantine friend - and all else who care to chime in - does this attitude of superiority only arise out of situations where the Novus and Vetus Ordo are celebrated side-by-side, or do communities with Latin Masses exclusively feel the relative safety of 'non-competition' which is conducive to charitable attitudes?

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Stimson, this group is unique. They were hostile and downright weird to begin with. Some of them came from a schismatic chapel to the south of us and they were off the wall. In fairness, some of those folks have left the EF group - one family was so nutty they were even asked to not return - and the EF group is better off without them. They now have a good priest which makes a huge difference.

    Theology? I would agree. The EF preserves more of a sacrificial emphasis. I chalk a lot of the differences up to reformers of either ilk having a gift for going off the deep end.

    Aesthetic preference? There's that, and I am not convinced God prefers Latin to English, or any other language. He's multi-lingual. Reverence and respect I think he likes greatly.

    I would like to meet that grandpa. He sounds like a fun dude.
  • Back to the OP's question.

    I think I've mentioned before that my parish is growing, and a good percentage of that growth is 20-somethings. There are parents with young ( and not so young) families, too, who are coming in part because they already know someone in the parish. (These families already had a home parish, but they find what we have …. infectious, I guess.

    We're not doing anything innovative to attract these people. There aren't campaigns to appeal to people who go to pubs, or people who subscribe to Fr. Zuhlsdorf's blog, or exhausted and fed-up Catholics in other parishes or..... any of that sort of nonsense. The liturgy, the ars celebrandi of the Institute, the needs of the people who come, and personal connections all draw people here.

  • MarkB
    Posts: 360
    This will depress many on this site, but it is the reality where I live.

    Attendance is declining across all demographics at almost every parish, mostly as a result of younger people not coming to Mass and older people dying. The one exception is the parish that uses evangelical praise and worship music at Mass with guitar and drum ensembles (performed by the stereotypical middle-aged, trying-too-hard-to-be-hip musicians) and has superficial religious ed with lots of fun and games. That parish is more of a Catholic social club than a faith community, but it is bringing in the people and expanding Sunday Mass times because of its growth in membership. The music is performed poorly (I can't stand to listen to it), nevermind it's not suitable for Mass, but people rave about the parish and its Mass, its music and its ministries. I don't get it.

    There isn't a parish around that offers authentic worship celebrated well, although some are better than others. The general character and quality of Mass celebration at parishes is uninspiring. But a couple parishes with traditionally-minded, determined pastors are beginning to move in the direction of reverent, beautiful, traditional worship and music. That has had the immediate effect of driving a significant number of parishioners (younger and with families, especially) in those parishes to the aforementioned Catholic social club parish.

    I hope that eventually the parishes attempting to move in the direction of authentic, reverent worship will attract people looking for substance. I'm at one such parish, and it's going to be a long road. I pray for the priests and do what I can to help. I hope restoring dignity and tradition and authenticity to the celebration of Mass will attract people seeking true worship and faith.

    So, in sum, my experience has been that taking steps to shift from a casual, typical, humdrum celebration of Mass to more traditional worship has the initial effect of driving people away to a P&W style parish. Whether the rebuilding and restoration of reverence and tradition will eventually result in increased attendance at parishes that initially lost members has yet to be seen because we're not quite there yet.
  • Mark,

    What you say isn't entirely surprising. I use the analogy of pizza (but cotton candy would do well, too). If I mention serving pizza to a group of teens, they'll usually say yes to that instead of a more formal, sit down, high brow meal. They might even tolerate it for a few meals in a week. Eventually, the kids recognize that I've been serving the same kind of pizza for every meal for a week, and they want something different, even better. Their first choice isn't often a homecooked meal with mom, because that might mean they would have to admit something wrong in the idea of eating out all the time, instead of just relieving the boredom of the same pizza at every meal for a week.

    Other people (so, not the musicians you describe, but some of the pew-sitting folk) may believe that what is happening is drawing people into the pews..... but if you (and they) look more carefully, they'll not see those growing in the authentic love of the Most Holy Trinity, nor in the practice of the faith, though they might see a "more active" parish.

    Harry Potter became a phenomenon when I was a relatively young teacher. Colleagues told me I should include it in my Latin curriculum, and that my boys should absolutely read the books when the were old enough, and they should watch the movies and...… but my wife and I decided that there were simply too many other good books, and the "sugar rush" of Harry Potter wasn't what we wanted to feed our children.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Personally, I've always believed that our job as liturgical musicians is more about leading the horse to water rather than worrying about whether or not the horse will drink the water.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    That happens in both directions. At a previous parish where I made the switch and caught a lot of flack for it, my boss continually worried that we were going to lose half the parish because of the change in music. I assured him that we were doing the right thing and that the parish would be fine. Some will leave but some will join.

    3 years later they are looking for the successor to my successor, and the job ad specifically mentions Gregorian chant and polyphony - but not a word about piano, contemporary, blended, vibrant, etc buzzword buzzword buzzword.

    The transition took 6 months and another 6 months before the dust settled. I took the heat and carried on, and my successor refused to budge and introduced an expanding repertoire of polyphony to the growing choir (Zero men when I started, 5 when I left. Proof’s in the pudding).

    So for all the worrying, the parish is just fine and now they’re specifically seeking the music which they feared would empty the pews.

  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Should we file this under abrogation or self-elimination?

    I fear that God is thinking elimination on a much different scale... at which point we may finally see pigs flying through the air.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I would say the bishop is not doing his job by allowing this.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870

    As In The Days Of Noe,

    so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    For, as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark:

    And they knew not till the flood came and took them all away: so also shall the coming of the Son of man be.”
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Noted and logged. I guess I learn a new abbreviation nearly as often as the Vatican updates its communication technology.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW francis
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