What do you call...?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    On Sunday? For shame.


    Big sinner here. I can't imagine anyone putting up with Catholics for fun. ;-)
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    It's years off in Purgatory. Some days, I just have to keep repeating that to myself . . .
    Thanked by 2Incardination CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Too bad we easterners don't believe in Purgatory. LOL. So no eternal benefits that I'm aware of.
  • ajplafond
    Posts: 25
    Maybe you'll just get benefits in heaven.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW StimsonInRehab
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Of course you Easterners do. Only you call it "Standing for the Entirety of a Three-Hour Liturgy".
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Too bad we easterners don't believe in Purgatory.

    CW, you might want to take this up with your proper eparch. I don't think he would agree with you that eastern rite Catholics "don't believe in Purgatory."
    Thanked by 2Incardination CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I will tell you that one of our reunification treaties with Rome - don't recall which one at the moment - says there is to be no discussion of Purgatory. We don't accept the Latin doctrine of Purgatory. We accept a purifying ascent to the Father, but not the Latin description of fire, etc.

    You have to be careful about those eparchs. If you can find a Catholic one not Latinized, he would be worth listening to. The Orthodox disagree on the whole subject so any number of explanations are likely.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Originally read this as 'who do you call...' and I was going to reply 'Ghost Busters!'
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Carol eft94530
  • ajplafond
    Posts: 25
    Imagine the Ghost Busters at Mass...
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    At the Kiss of Peace, the priest/deacon exchange is "I am the Key Master./I am the Gate Keeper."
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Or as a musician friend sang and played, based on the popular tune:

    Take your peace and shove it,
    I ain't comin' here no more.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,159
    CharlesW wrote:
    We don't accept the Latin doctrine of Purgatory. We accept a purifying ascent to the Father, but not the Latin description of fire, etc.

    I'm not sure what Charles is reacting against. Some of the supposed differences between East and West are mythical.

    The authoritative texts about purgatory probably don't mention fire. They aren't very specific, really. Of course the term is used in preaching and devotional imagery, and probably occurs in mysticism, but it doesn't appear in the Council of Trent's decree on the subject.

    The Council wrote:
    "there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are relieved by the suffrages of the faithful, but chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar".

    So, Charles, you may find that the Latins agree with you about purgatory, and vice versa, whether you like it or not.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    A tasting flight of toll house cookies, right?

    http://pixelatedcrumb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/chocochipcookie-8-682x1024.jpg

    Jacob's Ladder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrmR45-teoU
    Thanked by 2CharlesW StimsonInRehab
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think it safe to say the east doesn't accept the Latin add-ons, such as fire, indulgences, on and on. Those would be the differences.

    The Latins say that a soul goes to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory and that the souls in Purgatory suffer. Catholics pray for those souls so their time in Purgatory will be reduced. In the east, only saintly souls go directly to Heaven. Other souls wait in an indeterminate state but do not suffer. They await the day of judgement when they go to Heaven or Hell.

    So when easterners pray for the dead, they are praying the souls will go to Heaven on Judgement Day.

    And most do not believe in toll houses. That is a fringe belief.


    I'm not sure what Charles is reacting against


    I was reacting to Stimson who said, when I noted I can't imagine anyone putting up with Catholics for fun,
    It's years off in Purgatory. Some days, I just have to keep repeating that to myself . . .


  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,159
    Well, let's look at an official source to see what is taught by one of the Eastern Churches.

    The Catechism of the Ukrainian Catholic Church is on-line at
    http://catechism.royaldoors.net/catechism/

    On page 89, it has this:

    If a person has fallen asleep in God, having repented of all sins, but has not yet achieved spiritual maturity—the fullness of life in Christ—then that person enters the kingdom of God “as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). After death, such a person is still in need of spiritual healing and cleansing of all stain, in order to dwell “in a place of light ... where there is no pain, sorrow, or mourning.” [204] In the Church, this healing condition of the dead is referred to as “purgatory.” [205]

    Every fair and God-beloved soul, once it has been set free from the bonds of the body, departs hence, and immediately enjoys a sense and perception of the blessings which await it, inasmuch as that which darkened it has been purged away, or laid aside—I know not how else to term it. It then feels a wondrous pleasure and exultation, and goes rejoicing to meet its Lord. [206]

    For this reason the Church prays for the departed:

    Let us then give them aid and perform commemorations for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why do you doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? Since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others. [207]


    [Footnotes:]
    204 Trebnyk, Rite of Burial for a Layperson, Prayer of the ekteny for the deceased.
    205 Council of Florence, Bull Laetentur caeli [Let the Heavens Rejoice] (July 6, 1439); See also Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1030.
    206 Gregory the Theologian, Oration 7, 21: PG 35, 781.
    207 John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians, 41, 8: PG 61, 361.



    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Some eastern churches are more Latinized and my experience is that the Ukrainians are more so than some other eastern churches. Some churches manage to keep a greater distance from Rome. Creating even more confusion is the fact that the Orthodox have disagreements among themselves on this subject.

    In any event, "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." 2 Maccabees 12. So even the Jews prayed for the dead. Although the theology may differ, the important thing is to pray for the dead.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen hilluminar
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916


    Latins say...the souls in Purgatory suffer...Other souls wait in an indeterminate state but do not suffer.


    I'd say it's a fairly complex way to describe the manner of purification that a soul undergoes in Purgatory and to what degree we can ascribe the idea of "suffering" to it. I think a good example of the Latin school of thought (at least, one that's always stuck in my mind) is Cardinal Newman's description in The Dream of Gerontius. At the end of the poem, the soul of the deceased has the opportunity to behold the Beatific Vision - a sight so wonderful, so terribly majestic, the soul is overwhelmed by how worthy he is at that moment to look upon it, mainly because of his sinfulness. So it is with eagerness that he undergoes the cleansing of Purgatory - described not as fire, but almost as a warm, cleansing bath:


    "And carefully I dip thee in the lake,
    And thou, without a sob or a resistance,
    Dost through the flood thy rapid passage take . . .
    Farewell, but not forever! Brother dear,
    Be brave and patient on thy bed of sorrow;
    Swiftly shall pass thy night of trial here,
    And I will come and wake thee on the morrow."


    I think it safe to say the east doesn't accept the Latin add-ons


    When you've got plenty of add-ons of your own, right? ;) Hey, that's human nature. People of different mindsets and inclinations naturally tend to view some of the revealed truths with certain accretions, and so long as they're not opposed to Divine Revelation, I fail to see how there's any problem.

    But how could you not see the importance of fire? Indulgences are a tricky lot to describe, perhaps. But fire?!? God the Father Himself is Ignis Ardens and I'm sure we all know how thoroughly Justice can burn, even if only in a mundane sense!

    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Stimson, I think the hardest thing for us to accept is Scholastic theology. It strains at gnats and over-complicates things. If it was good enough for the 4th century Christians, it is good enough for us, without elaboration.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles,

    Not 4th century Christians, but 19th Century Russians, surely?
    Thanked by 3StimsonInRehab CharlesW eft94530
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Thomas More gave the Devil the benefit of the law, for his own sake. I'll give the Church the benefit of the law for my own, as well!
    Thanked by 2hilluminar eft94530
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    CharlesW,

    Palamas was rather later than the 4th c.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    He was rather late in Byzantine theology, (1296-1359) preaching solitude and unceasing prayer. Not a bad thing and we could all use more of both. No Scholastic hair-splitting, however.

    St. Barsanuphius, sixth century, now there was a name! Prayer, moral perfection and love for people. You can't go wrong with those.

    19th century Russia. Is not outrage.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    The Intellect is a gift.
    Ignorance is not a virtue and
    failure to properly use a gift in some way insults the Gift-Giver.
    You cannot love what you do not know and
    the more you know about God the more you should be able to love God.
    Thanked by 3Carol M. Jackson Osborn bhcordova
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