• A church musician picks up the new translation, sets it to music and starts teaching it and then begins to sing it....now.

    Two instances:

    In the first, the person is not aware that the official date of use of it has not already passed. I think we know that that is forgiveable.

    In the second, the person knows, but is so driven by the inaccurate paraphrasing of the existing Glory to God that she (let's not always blame this sort of thing on the male members of the group alone) knows that they are wrong and must be corrected now, not later.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I would erect a shrine to that individual. Even I am not so bold.
  • how does the saying go? it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to get permission . . .
  • No, no...like souls, we should not gather here...lest we become...targets!

    [Gavin....brick or wood..or better yet! MARBLE!) (with darth_linuk's words chiseled in...HE SHOULD HAVE ASKED....) Could the attached jpg serve as an excuse? "Well, yes I did, but obviously I had my.....
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Realistically, we all know it would be "wrong". But objectively, it's the right thing to do. If my next job is a Catholic church, I'll be GREATLY tempted to introduce one of the new English chant sancti from the CMAA. If we can sing "God of power, God of might", surely we can sing "God of hosts"!

    The only REAL problem I have with it is that IF the bishop or ICEL gets word of it, the whole CMAA project (or whomever is authoring the setting) would have its reputation tarnished by being associated with the disobedient. Remember, to the "mainstream" Church, disobedience is OK... unless you're being obedient to Tradition! So I think it's a bit iffy... but whomever would do such a thing is instantly my hero.
  • paul
    Posts: 60
    When news of the new translation came out, I got all excited and looked the new texts up and saw that particularly with the Gloria, there was literally no way ANY english Gloria I had been using would be acceptable. After I got resigned to the idea I talked to my pastor about the best way to introduce the new ordinary. He suggested I get in touch with our missallette publisher, figuring that we should at least wait until the people could hold these translations in their hands before trying to implement them. I called. What a shock--The representative I talked to practically laughed me out of the room. They're not even CONTEMPLATING printing them in the next liturgical year, and maybe not even the one after that. I think they're counting on the wheels of the church turning v-e-r-y slowly. Now I'm pretty sure I'll be able to retire before the masses in my Gather Hymnal become obsolete.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Right, when the bishops ask for new settings, AT the deadline the publishers will say "but we didn't know! And we already have 2 more years on the presses!" and they'll push back the translations two or three more years. What Noel describes MAY likely be the only way we will have what Rome wants.
  • Well, they were used in the Papal Mass in Australia.
  • Precedent. I love it!
  • @Jeffrey Tucker:

    Just a minor clarification on the translations for the WYD '08 Papal Mass: The Sanctus translation used contained "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God of hosts." The one that approved the recognitio doesn't contain "is the".

    The rest of the observation stands.
  • Well, with Benedict 16 there, he had every right to put his hand up and stop the singing of the Mass in the new translation, like the old days when the Pope signelled when to begin the Kyrie...and when to end it and so on.
  • Your GATHER hymnal was obsolete before it was printed...all of these non-Sacred music hymnals were declared to be anachronistic when Benedict began speaking about music.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,337
    You are all wandering in dangerous territory. Don't lend your skill to questionable translations. Stick to latin and be remembered for standing firm once the waves of confusion have passed by.
  • I just got this:

    "btw - there IS an English version of the Tridentine Mass - it is called The Anglican Missal. Just substitute the Gregorian Canon for the Anglican canon and you have a Tridentine Mass in beautiful English.

    A side-note about the Anglican Missal. In the 60's, when Vatican II was about to implement the change from Latin to the vernacular, there was discussion about translating the Roman Missal in to English. Cardinal Cushing brought in an Anglican Missal, plopped it on the table and said, "it's already been done." Don't you wonder what the state of Roman liturgy would be today if they had adopted that back then..."

    Yes, I DO wonder...
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I get the strong feeling that 95% of why we aren't using that is because the protestants already were. So I blame the conservatives - "if the prots are using good language and music, we'll have none of that! Call the worst composer you can find, and hire some English dropouts to translate the Mass!"

    I've never been to an Anglican Missal service, the closest I've come is a 1928 service with the Gloria switched to the beginning; I found it quite tiresome, since the placement of the Gloria in the BCP allows one to stand riiight before your knees give out from kneeling so much. There is no such luxury if you don't do the Gloria after communion. That was a very painful day.
  • There is no question that the cultural anti-Anglicanism alive in the Catholic world is a major factor behind many of the postconciliar liturgical messes. We tried to do Mass in English while avoiding all things Anglican. We ended up with something unsustainable and frequently ridiculous. And this tendency to reject the Anglican experience out of hand is still with us. I know of a case of a parish with a schola that started singing polyphony and solid hymns, but the experiment was stopped because it was said that this was Anglican music, not Catholic music like "One Bread, One Body" etc.
  • Yes, American anti-Anglicanism! My Father had a double-cousin named Walter Edwin. My parents wanted to name my youngest brother after him. They check out family Bible - "Catholic", of course. They felt like they had to name him Walter Edward - because they did find a St. Edward in the child-naming section of the Bible. Never mind that there is a St. Walter - Abbott of a French Monastery, but born in England; or St. Edwin - the first Christian king of Northumbria. Those were considered "Anglican" Saints - NOT Catholic, and were expunged from all "good" Catholic Bibles!

    Of course, we're all taught that America is a "melting pot", i.e. we're all from somewhere else - and none of those 'somewhere elses' matter any longer. The further implication is that we're NOT from English tradition. Nor are most people aware that about 50% of all US Presidents are from Episcopalian upbringing! And, although we have had a Catholic President, and a number candidates, there has never been anyone come even close to the White House of Lutheran background!

    Sorry for the political tangent. But it really is a melting-pot, least-common-denominator value system that we Americans have so successfully built up!
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,337
    ...and the one Catholic President was asassignated.
  • As a convert from Anglicanism, I can testify to the reality behind Jeffrey's last 'intervention'. I've lost track of the times that I've been told in venomous tones that I promote the music I do because 'you're an Episcopal'. This phenomenon is far from absent in Great Britain. On both sides of the Atlantic one of the underlying issues is the strong English/Irish animosity, which lives on in stereotypes of penal-laws Catholicism and established-church Anglicanism. This malign spirit keeps many Anglicans from converting.