Music Education: Children - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/categories/music-education-children/feed.rss Tue, 16 Jun 26 05:52:52 +0000 Music Education: Children - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum en-CA Experience Combing Ward and Kodaly? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23434/experience-combing-ward-and-kodaly Sat, 23 May 2026 05:18:00 +0000 Jonathan_Culbreath 23434@/forum/discussions
But this is a very new thing for me. I have led an adult choir for some time now, with much success, and I have taught Latin and theology in school before, but never music yet. In the general music classes, I plan to rely a lot on the Kodaly method, but I also want to incorporate elements of the Ward method to ensure they become familiar with chant. I am curious whether anybody in this forum has experience combining Ward with Kodaly in this way? In terms melodic training and notation, it doesn't strike me that it should be very difficult to do, since both methods rely heavily on solfege; one need only impress on the students that music may be written on four or five lines, sometimes with square notes or sometimes with circles, but in both cases it is important to know where Do is on the staff, etc... It is where rhythm enters the picture that I have more questions. Kodaly emphasizes metrical rhythms right from the beginning, which will of course be necessary for choral music if they are to become choristers. But what are your experiences and perspectives for teaching both metrical music and Gregorian "free rhythm" (I dislike that term, but for lack of another phrase) simultaneously? Or do you teach them not simultaneously at all, but in a specific sequence? Do you expose them to free rhythm before metrical music, or vice versa? Can Ward and Kodaly be profitably combined and adapted to one another?

And any other thoughts and experiences you may be moved to share!]]> Building a new youth choir in the sacred setting https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23158/building-a-new-youth-choir-in-the-sacred-setting Fri, 13 Feb 2026 23:15:56 +0000 AngelaR 23158@/forum/discussions
I was recently approached by an internationally recognized expert in choral pedagogy, longtime music director, and devout Catholic, about finding ways to support budding directors of youth choirs in the sacred setting. We landed upon a 3-part live and interactive series via Zoom, happening on Tuesdays in March. Seats are limited.

If you are interested in more information, please visit https://www.chantacademy.com/play-to-performance.]]> Recordings of children chanting Mass parts? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23101/recordings-of-children-chanting-mass-parts Sun, 25 Jan 2026 11:50:47 +0000 Bri 23101@/forum/discussions
https://longbeachchant.com/chant/mass/kyriale-jubilate-deo-usccb/

I can easily find men chanting (see link above), but I'd love to find recordings of children (or women would be fine too).

Thanks!]]> So you're going to [re]start a school choir... (advice requested) https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22834/so-you039re-going-to-restart-a-school-choir...-advice-requested Tue, 30 Sep 2025 20:26:08 +0000 ServiamScores 22834@/forum/discussions
Without going into too much detail to protect all involved, suffice it to say I'm dealing with a politically sensitive situation. For the last two years, we have had a "school mass choir" which consisted of 3rd and 4th graders. It was spearheaded by a teacher in the school who would meet with them during the week. This teacher picked all the songs for Mass. (I had almost no input; certain powers were seized in the wake of my predecessor's departure and before my arrival.) Now, nearly 2 years into the job and after speaking with the pastor, I decided (as DoSM) to implement a few appropriate changes. The teacher promptly resigned in protest. Because the preexisting system hinged on that teacher's participation, (I merely showed up as accompanist) the existing choir collapsed once they recused themself from directing. This happened only a few days before school started.

This was an entirely unintended result of my proposal to trim the worst of the excesses away as well as provide a healthier diet of "hymns every child should know" based on the poll I did here & elsewhere, an audit of mainstream hymnals, and also the Pueri Cantores recommended hymns list. (To date they've been fed a diet that consists exclusively of the greatest time-capsule hits from GIA as well as some newer OCP PW songs.) I drew up a written proposal for the changes I was hoping to see and presented it to the pastor and principal. In a deliberate effort to ease the transition, I had formally proposed that all the prelude music would stay the same (ie-PW music picked and conducted solely by that teacher), and was still going to have the teacher pick all the hymnody, albeit from the revised list. There was still going to be a ton of free reign, and the list I collated deliberately included the overwhelming majority of the songs they were already in the habit of singing. As I said, I was attempting to only limit the very worst of the songs and then introduce a few better things in their place (Be Thou My Vision, I Sing the Mighty Power of God, Holy Holy Holy, etc. Very main-stream.) This was all rejected outright, and has upset some people because the optics are that I "abruptly canceled the student choir". This is far from the truth, but I'm now left to pick up the pieces. The whole thing is so sad, because I tried to be so gentle by deliberately retaining the majority of the cherished things, and I wasn't even proposing that I be the one to pick all the music, even though it is my literal job to do so.

I seem to remember some old adage about a road and good intentions... sigh.

We now need to restart the group, entirely under my direction. I couldn't get all my ducks in a row mere days before school started, so we still haven't started training yet. (I will also be on leave for a few weeks due to life circumstances.) On the bright side: there is a lot of opportunity to really begin to teach eager singers actual sacred music, and not just happy-clappy schtuff, which appears to have no lasting appeal after about 4th grade. On the less-bright side, my contact with the children will be very minimal. I will get them for about 20-25 minutes, once per week the day before school mass, by taking up some of their lunch/recess hour (perhaps twice if I really forced the issue). And all this would be voluntary on the part of the students. After meeting with the principal, we are thinking about focusing on grades 6-8 (assuming a critical mass of participants) since the younger kids just don't seem ready, and the cohort of older kids all take lunch at the same time. [If there is no such critical mass, then I will have to pivot to grades 3-5, although I would prefer to avoid this based on previous experience.] A friend did propose expanding it down to 4th grade—which I'm open to—but that will require two separate rehearsals each day we have them.

So the questions:

• How would you all go about teaching the kids?
•What would you teach them? (I'm thinking of leaning heavily on SJMP chorister stuff for this, but I'm open to other good suggestions.)
• For people who have worked extensively with students before, what expectations should I realistically hold? (I rather imagine I'll be quite limited in what I can teach them on such a small diet of rehearsal.)
• What other advice do you have?

We've been working on the missal chants as a school (Latin last year, English this year) which I want to continue reinforcing. I'd like to teach them some simple latin antiphons like Parce Domine or Attende Domine. I also need to start teaching kids to cantor simple psalms (I have already written them).

I'm trying really hard to be sensitive about this shift, (and the first few weeks of school masses have overwhelmingly been repertoire they already know) but the powers-that-be in the school simply do not share the vision. To wit: they actively oppose it. Unfortunately for their hurt feelings, this is my literal full-time job and I have to start doing it at some point. My formal proposal was to keep the current structure in place, slowly turning the ship around via structured guidance, but that was apparently out of the question. I really want people to come along for the ride and embrace the vision, which is why I'm seeking advice. While I've been known to charge in to projects, rather ironically, the one time I go out of my way to avoid that approach, it backfires the worst. Laugh or cry, I guess... But now I need help. ]]> A Little Litany for School Children https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22724/a-little-litany-for-school-children Mon, 18 Aug 2025 19:24:26 +0000 fatherdims 22724@/forum/discussions Video of Ward Hand Signals https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21961/video-of-ward-hand-signals Fri, 04 Oct 2024 09:26:06 +0000 LM0428DS 21961@/forum/discussions
On another note - does anyone know of any online courses/certifications in the Ward method? I’m willing to put in the work to learn, I just don’t know where to start. ]]> Responsorial Psalms for School Masses? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21885/responsorial-psalms-for-school-masses Tue, 20 Aug 2024 17:25:18 +0000 StephenMatthew 21885@/forum/discussions Angelus: Longer Format? With music? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/3047/angelus-longer-format-with-music Tue, 09 Feb 2010 17:51:02 +0000 bgeorge77 3047@/forum/discussions
Seeing as how it doesn't take that long to say an Angelus, is there a longer form? A sung form?

Perhaps: Angelus plus Sext of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Or a hymn too? I don't know, does anyone have any opinion or experience with this? It is my hope that they will be chanting the Ave Maria.

Any historical info anyone can give on a sung Angelus would be great!

Though this is going to be for pretty small kids (1st-5th grade) I think I can get away with having it in mostly Latin, the Aves in particular. English Gregorian would be good too, for the other parts.

Sorry for the jumbled nature of this post, but I am hoping someone will get the gist of what I'm looking for here.]]> Ward Method Implementation and Pacing https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22468/ward-method-implementation-and-pacing Wed, 07 May 2025 15:30:33 +0000 rvisser 22468@/forum/discussions This is my first year at this particular school, and first year implementing Ward method across the board (I taught high school previously). I have only gone to training for Ward Level 1.
My question is this - how much of Book 1 can you reasonably expect to get through in a school year? I teach exclusively liturgical music. We chant the Mass parts in Latin, the whole school (Kindergarten included) chants the Marian antiphons at Mass daily. We sing English hymns, motets in parts for Grades 5 and up, and I incorporate Ward lessons for 15 minutes or so each class period. I use solfege A LOT in my teaching.
But...we have only made it to Chapter 8 of Ward Book 1. Grades K-1 struggle a bit with the dictation exercises (there is a range from totally lost to those who completely get it). Grade 3 and up do very well with dictation exercises and staff notation (do clef), but Chapter 8 is where the skip from 1-3 gets introduced and I feel like we are just stuck.
Is my pacing reasonable? What have you experienced with your students?
Thanks!]]> Saint Nicolas https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22090/saint-nicolas Fri, 06 Dec 2024 14:50:42 +0000 Jehan_Boutte 22090@/forum/discussions
Here is a well-known and loved little French song about Saint Nicolas rising three children from the dead: https://youtu.be/Q4MkozomPcA
Once a very popular song among children, and still a very well-written one.]]> Words with Wings PDFs? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21376/words-with-wings-pdfs Sun, 31 Dec 2023 23:14:37 +0000 Geremia 21376@/forum/discussions Words for Wings Instructor Edition and Children's Workbook?

From the Instructor Edition sample, I see it's licensed
© Copyright 2012 Church Music Association of America
Creative Commons Attribution 3.0
creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
which means posting PDFs of it would not violate copyright, as long as appropriate credit is given.

I work at a very poor diocesan school, and it would be easier and cheaper for us to simply print handouts than to buy the paperbacks.]]> Children's First Chants https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21344/children039s-first-chants Sat, 16 Dec 2023 11:36:08 +0000 tomjaw 21344@/forum/discussions https://www.isaiahbooks.co.uk/product-page/children-s-first-chants

N.B. The owner of the business is a friend and Godmother to one of my children.]]> Veni, Veni Emmanuel https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20490/veni-veni-emmanuel Fri, 16 Dec 2022 17:24:14 +0000 tomjaw 20490@/forum/discussions https://societyofstbede.wordpress.com/2022/12/16/commencement-of-the-great-antiphons/]]> Plainsong for Schools Pt 1 & 2 https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21143/plainsong-for-schools-pt-1-2 Mon, 11 Sep 2023 15:41:29 +0000 tomjaw 21143@/forum/discussions
This book is edited by the Musical Commission of the Archdiocese of Liverpool, with the approval of the Archbishop. It purpose is to provide a good selection of Plainsong for use in the Schools of the Archdiocese, in which the standard of Plainsong is the Vatican Edition in four-line notation, with the Solesmes rhythmic signs.

Originally published in c. 1930 , I have copies from the 1930's to the 1960's.

I have now scanned Plainsong for Schools Pt1 and Pt2. These have been scanned at 300dpi, most of the content has been already coded in GABC. An Organ edition was also published, I have access to the Pt 1 copy, which I hope to scan at some stage.

Plainsong for Schools Pt 1

Plainsong for Schools pt2

Here is the forward by the Archbishop of Liverpool,
It is with great pleasure that I commend this little manual to the notice of the English-speaking Catholic public. It is something that has been wanted in connection with the recent movement to popularise Plain Chant. Here in Liverpool, and I am told also in Birmingham, Cardiff, and Nottingham, many people have been converted to the Plain Chant movement by simple lessons and practical demonstrations given by members of the Society of St. Gregory. Since then our main need has been for a reliable text-book suitable for use in schools, and I am happy to think that this need has now been adequately supplied. It has been gratifying to see that way in which the music of the Church has been appreciated by those who have taken the trouble to master its principles and method. Like the Liturgy it is in itself a prayer, and act of worship. It cannot be judged by ordinary musical canons, for it is more than music, and has higher aims than nearly to delight the aesthetic sense. It must be studied in its rudiment as carefully as mathematics, and the student obviously needs the anchorage of the printed word. This instruction is excellently given in the introduction which has be compiled by the Benedictine Dames of Stanbrook Abbey. +Richard July 4th 1930.
]]> Finding a piece to teach middle school https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21232/finding-a-piece-to-teach-middle-school Sat, 21 Oct 2023 12:49:37 +0000 OMagnumMysterium 21232@/forum/discussions
At first I was thinking the simple tone of the Alma Redemptoris Mater, since it will be the season for that soon, but then I was realizing that even that would probably be too difficult (and long) for them. Then I was thinking the simple Regina Caeli, since it is so intuitive that even babies learn to sing it. But it's out of season, and we would have to stop singing it for Septuagesima season and Lent. Then I was thinking the simple Salve Regina, but I think that's longer than I can get their attention spans to last for.

Suggestions (and prayers) are greatly appreciated.]]> Looking for an engraving https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20073/looking-for-an-engraving Sat, 25 Jun 2022 18:24:18 +0000 Koenraad 20073@/forum/discussions
Une gravure anglaise représente, en un triptyque vécu, trois aspects d’enfants de maîtrise. Un premier dessin, ce qu’il semblent être : des enfants charmants; un deuxième, ce qu’ils sont : des lutins déchaînés; un troisième, comment ils chantent : comme des anges du Paradis !

Translation :
An English engraving represents, in a lived triptych, three aspects of choirboys. A first drawing, what they seem to be: charming children; a second, what they are: raging goblins; a third, how they sing: like angels of Paradise!
(Un Cardinal Humaniste Saint Robert Bellarmin et La Musique Liturgique. Alfred Bernier. Desclée De Brouwer, 1939, p. 56).

Can anyone tell me what engraving he is talking about?
Thank you in advance.]]> Classical Liberal Arts Music Curriculum https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19095/classical-liberal-arts-music-curriculum Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:34:47 +0000 musicatstmichaels 19095@/forum/discussions Ward hand signals https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19618/ward-hand-signals Thu, 06 Jan 2022 23:12:46 +0000 AngelaR 19618@/forum/discussions elementary school Latin? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18211/elementary-school-latin Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:42:46 +0000 Geremia 18211@/forum/discussions Ward method intro. video series https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/11247/ward-method-intro.-video-series Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:43:13 +0000 Geremia 11247@/forum/discussions
Update:
]]> Mass responses card https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18462/mass-responses-card Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:21:53 +0000 davido 18462@/forum/discussions This mass changed from a parochial mass to a school only mass due to COVID and it is evident that the children either do not know the responses and when to sit/stand, or need reminding.

Does anyone have recommendations for a purchase from 2011 new translation time, or something that they created? I would also prefer it to be traditional, not cartoonish like so much that is available online.]]> Classical Music on YouTube https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17750/classical-music-on-youtube Wed, 15 Jan 2020 00:24:28 +0000 PianistNowOrganist 17750@/forum/discussions
These are for the students to listen to on their own time. Ages 4-8

Thank you!]]> Corpus Christi Sequence chant in english? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/1444/corpus-christi-sequence-chant-in-english Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:48:01 +0000 11schweitzers 1444@/forum/discussions Good News: Diocese of New Ulm "Cor Jesu" Event https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17659/good-news-diocese-of-new-ulm-cor-jesu-event Mon, 09 Dec 2019 05:40:56 +0000 NihilNominis 17659@/forum/discussions
It's been a privilege to work with them so far this year, but tonight's event was truly exceptional.

This being the Advent event, we focused our repertoire on that holy season. The culmination of the night's music was planned to be Paul Manz's extraordinary, "E'en So, Lord Jesus, Quickly Come," sung by candlelight in the darkened Church of St. Ann in Wabasso, MN (population: 665), the Blessed Sacrament exposed.

I have some students at the parish high school where I work (about 45 minutes away) who are working up this piece as a special ensemble for the regional solo / ensemble competition, so I dropped them an invitation last week to join us, if they wanted.

They showed up, almost to a man, despite the length of the drive and the cold, late hour. That left me with a choir of fully 20 high-school youth from around the diocese. It was stunning. The Manz went off flawlessly, too. Here is the full list of music we sang:

-O Salutaris (Werner, SATB)
-O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (unaccompanied)
-O Heart of Jesus (Marier, from the "Pius X Hymnal")
-Cor Jesu, Salus in Te Sperantium (Fr. Schultes)
-The Angel Gabriel
-Ave Maria (plainchant and Arcadelt)
-Creator of the Stars of Night
-Godhead Here in Hiding (ADORO TE)
-The King Shall Come When Morning Dawns (MORNING SONG)
-E'en So Lord Jesus, Quickly Come (Paul Manz)

and at Benediction:
-Tantum Ergo (plainchant)
-The Divine Praises (adapt. from the Simple "Te Deum" by Fr. Wm. Fitzgerald, O. Praem)
-O Come, Divine Messiah

What a privilege and a blessing! Just wanted to share some of my overflowing joy.]]> youth choir https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17599/youth-choir Wed, 13 Nov 2019 16:57:35 +0000 johnpb 17599@/forum/discussions As to the topic, there will be a youth choir (6-12ish) starting up at my parish that I will be directing/co-directing. I have been singing in choirs for about 6 years , but because of the young age, I'm not really sure where one would start? (most of them will be coming in with very little musical experience) Or what music to start with. If anyone has any pointers or suggestions....? thanks]]> Piano Lesson Policies Needed https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17565/piano-lesson-policies-needed Thu, 31 Oct 2019 01:59:54 +0000 PianistNowOrganist 17565@/forum/discussions Would you please share them?

A mother at church would like me to begin teaching her daughters' piano which I'm happy to do but wanted to give her some guildlines/policies before we started.

You know the boring stuff: fees, cancellation notice, length of lessons, etc.]]> Diocesan news coverage of our Chant Camp https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17304/diocesan-news-coverage-of-our-chant-camp Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:33:28 +0000 32ContraBombarde 17304@/forum/discussions https://www.hbgdiocese.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/July-5-Edition.pdf), and they just released a video production as well (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwRtAZQaE54). ]]> K-8 Curriculum Advice! https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17190/k-8-curriculum-advice Sun, 02 Jun 2019 19:53:26 +0000 sergeantedward 17190@/forum/discussions
I am moving to a new position, where I will be in teaching music for K-8 students in a Catholic private school (alongside parish duties). The opportunity is there for an entirely new K-8 program, with a great deal of support from the community to massively increase the standards.

I am seeking a curriculum, that takes the kids from K-8, based almost entirely around singing. The preference for the administration is that this is basically a "Choir School", like the English might have. (I'm not entirely clear on the details of what that might mean, however.)

1. I was not personally brought up in what you might call a choir school, and was decidedly on this side of the Atlantic as well. So while I admire the results of the English youth, I don't know the first thing about what they do that is so different from Americans. Your advice and soap boxes are most welcome on this subject :)

2. Most importantly, I'm seeking a systematic curriculum that can take kids from K to 8, with the desired result being 8th graders who can sight read and perform choral works better than the average American master's student. (I really don't believe this is being too ambitious.) I am sure there are education experts of incredible talent who have written curricula far exceeding what I could produce.

3. If you have any general advice on teaching K-8, and some hard lessons you learned in the trenches, I am ALL EARS.]]> New Children's Choir Program https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/16551/new-children039s-choir-program Wed, 31 Oct 2018 00:03:26 +0000 svguokas 16551@/forum/discussions I was recently hired to re-vamp/re-start the music education program and children's choirs at my parish. The school (Pre-K through 8) has about 175 kids total. Currently I have about 15 in choir...the focus is traditional liturgy (think English Novus Ordo but with the Ordinary and hymns, as much as possible, in Latin). The goal is to establish a children's choir that can sing either English or Latin Ordinary *and* Propers, as well as any other chant that might be needed for liturgical functions (processions, blessings, etc.) Right now we are using the (extremely modest) selection of Orff instruments and the Kodaly solfege handsigns. Which, if any, methodologies/pedagogies would you recommend going forward and why? I've been recommended to RSCM, Ward, etc., and am wondering which of them might be worthwhile. Thanks much for any help!]]> Middle School Choir https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/16364/middle-school-choir Mon, 27 Aug 2018 14:33:58 +0000 PolskaPiano 16364@/forum/discussions
So 6, 7, 8th graders. 60 of them (Laughter or tears?)

The class is 45 minutes and is in the church. The choir area is not large enough and the piano will be used sparingly since it is not close enough to sit at. The structure of the class may look like this:
1) Warm Ups
2) Ear Training (repeating intervals and phrases back)
3) -playing with the idea of doing solfeg here-
4) Opening prayer (song)
5) Learn part of the liturgy and the ordinaries of that part (theology/liturgy/chant)
6) __Somehow arrange the choir to do a hymn. A BEAUTIFUL hymn or two____
7) Closing psalm

Any suggestions or ideas (to expand upon or change--- I'm open to this. The class was pitched to me as "liturgical music" and I jumped on the chance; however, it really is the place to put the kids that didn't want to do band. I am sure about %15-20 of them like music or singing. The rest are there because they didn't want band. However, I want them to get something out of this. I don't envision a straight choir, but I do want to do some good pieces.

Thanks!
]]>