Semiology - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/categories/gregorian-chant%3A-semiology/feed.rss Sun, 10 May 26 22:58:12 +0000 Semiology - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum en-CA Semiology, mensuralism ? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23236/semiology-mensuralism- Sat, 14 Mar 2026 19:22:03 +0000 probe 23236@/forum/discussions May I ask for a pointer to a resource that describes them not-very-academically?
Even better, it would help to find two recordings of the same piece, one with traditional (Solesmes?) interpretation, the other using those methods, so I can hear the difference in a compare-and-contrast ?

]]> Koerber's Illuminated Hybrid Modern (Metrical) Notation https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23207/koerber039s-illuminated-hybrid-modern-metrical-notation Tue, 03 Mar 2026 19:49:09 +0000 francis 23207@/forum/discussions
Here are a couple of examples (far from perfected)... these are still in the idea phase.

For those of you who are promoting a metrical form of GC, what is the equivalent of breve, semi-breve in Gregorian Chant notation? I was thinking of experimenting with that also.]]> Scholas Actually Singing from the Graduale Novum https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22628/scholas-actually-singing-from-the-graduale-novum Mon, 14 Jul 2025 18:18:58 +0000 FSSPmusic 22628@/forum/discussions complete Masses directly from the Graduale Novum? Dr. Edward Schaefer and Fr. Anthony Ruff may have had groups capable of doing so, likewise for Sven Olbash and Gloria Dei Cantores, but those are about the only ensembles I can think of, and I don't know that any of them sing full Masses on a regular basis reading adiastematic neumes. An introit and communion every Sunday might be easier to track down, but I'm looking specifically for ensembles—not solo cantors—that sing full Propers on a regular basis, regardless of whether they sing for TLM, novus ordo, Ordinariate, Anglo-Catholic, etc. Thanks.]]> Origins of Oremus Pro Pontifice chant https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22636/origins-of-oremus-pro-pontifice-chant Wed, 16 Jul 2025 22:11:42 +0000 OMagnumMysterium 22636@/forum/discussions Episema dillema and Salve Regina simplex example https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22629/episema-dillema-and-salve-regina-simplex-example Tue, 15 Jul 2025 08:39:20 +0000 cantor_pomeranis 22629@/forum/discussions
It sounds good, but if we completely abandon episemas and dots next to neumes, it's not entirely clear which notes to prolong. In the case of long melismas, this might be less of an issue and allow for more interpretation. But what should be done with simpler, syllabic chant melodies, like the Credo or antiphons? Take Salve Regina for example. Which notes should be prolonged and which shouldn't? Below is a working rendition of the Salve Regina simplex. Please let me know:

1) If I've understood correctly where to prolong the note.

2) What your general thoughts are on eliminating episemas and dots.

3) Whether it wouldn't be easier to revert to episemas, even at the cost of "purity" of notation and adequacy with manuscripts? Given that such a notation has already developed over a 100-year tradition and is clear and legible, couldn't it remain in use as a guide?
]]> "Omnes qui in Christo" corrected chant question https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22169/omnes-qui-in-christo-corrected-chant-question Fri, 10 Jan 2025 17:00:00 +0000 MarkB 22169@/forum/discussions
Here is the chant in the Graduale Triplex. At the end of the word "baptizati", the chant ends on "do"; the chant continues on the word "estis" on the same pitch: "do".

image

In both of the corrected editions, the first pitch on the word "estis" has been raised to "re". This is from the Graduale Novum, but the Liber Gradualis has made the same change.

image

There appears to be conflicting melodic instructions in the St. Gall neumes, with both a "r", indicating higher pitch, and an "e", indicating an equal pitch.

It appears the Triplex favored the "e" whereas the corrected editions favored the "r". I've begun to dabble in semiology, and I'm wondering why both of the corrected editions decided to make the same change from the Triplex. In most cases, I can easily see that the corrected editions got it right when they changed the melody. In this case, I'm perplexed.]]> Asperges Source Manuscripts https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22084/asperges-source-manuscripts Tue, 03 Dec 2024 15:14:26 +0000 OMagnumMysterium 22084@/forum/discussions
I am particularly looking for the following manuscripts (or any useful leads):

- Anything which may shed light on this mode 8 Ambrosian tone which I found through CPDL. The website (old.cantoambrosiano.com) is no longer up, but it is partially archived on the wayback machine. I have tried contacting Giovanni Vianini using the email on the score, but my emails do not go through, it seems the address is no longer in use.
image

- The source(s) of the mode 1 Asperges in the Kyriale compiled by Peter Holger Sandhofe. It is given as sixteenth or seventeenth century, so it is not hugely important to me, but it would still be good to get the full picture together and have all the information. I believe it is probably a variant of the mode VII tones. If it is cantus fractus that would be exciting, but I'm not holding my breath.

- Additional sources of a mode 2 Asperges found in GB-Dru Cosin. Actually, just suffice it to say that I am very interested in any alternate tones which differ from those in the Vatican Kyriale, whether I've already found some version of them or not. I have already gone through the cantus database and cantus index. But perhaps there are other collections of which I am not aware. ]]> What is this rare flex symbol? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21816/what-is-this-rare-flex-symbol Sun, 14 Jul 2024 23:47:30 +0000 Geremia 21816@/forum/discussions image
This symbol indicates the flex in the first part of the verse of psalms and canticles, but the asterisk serves for the meter or pause in the middle of the verse [sung] in choir and in common.
]]> Laon, how to read. https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7292/laon-how-to-read. Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:42:47 +0000 Salieri 7292@/forum/discussions Graduale Triplex) Jeffrey Morse handed out a very helpful little sheet at the Colloquium for St Gall that I reference constantly.]]> Introduction to Mensuralism https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20988/introduction-to-mensuralism Thu, 29 Jun 2023 17:32:31 +0000 FSSPmusic 20988@/forum/discussions Introduction to Mensuralism.  To make my point even more strongly, I probably should have recorded the first and last examples with the metronome (or at least sung them without any rubato at all), but what's done is done!]]> Free Semiology Workshop, 3.9.24, Raleigh, NC https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21510/free-semiology-workshop-3.9.24-raleigh-nc Mon, 26 Feb 2024 17:07:30 +0000 Mora 21510@/forum/discussions I’m running a free introductory workshop on Gregorian Semiology on Saturday, March 9, 2024 from 9-11am EST at St. Michael’s RCC in Cary, NC (just outside of Raleigh, NC). Flyer is attached. Feel free to message me with questions. Thank you!]]> Alma Redemptoris Mater Manuscripts Images https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21191/alma-redemptoris-mater-manuscripts-images Tue, 03 Oct 2023 19:39:17 +0000 OMagnumMysterium 21191@/forum/discussions
I would be really interested if anyone could find a manuscript of the simple tone. I don't know if there are manuscripts of the simple tones, or if they were just composed by Solesmes, but if someone does know, please enlighten me.]]> Graduale Novum and Triplex pdf downloads https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20491/graduale-novum-and-triplex-pdf-downloads Fri, 16 Dec 2022 17:39:36 +0000 MarkB 20491@/forum/discussions
Graduale Novum:
https://pdfcoffee.com/graduale-novum-2-pdf-free.html

Graduale Triplex:
https://pdfcoffee.com/graduale-triplex-1976-pdf-free.html
]]> Deus, Deus meus rhythmic variations https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20782/deus-deus-meus-rhythmic-variations Tue, 28 Mar 2023 19:40:27 +0000 MarkB 20782@/forum/discussions
With Palm Sunday approaching, I decided to look at the tract Deus, Deus meus (but only up to the word “dereliquisti” because it’s such a long chant). It’s on page 144 of the Triplex. After studying it myself, I found recordings that I believe exemplify four different rhythmic approaches to singing this chant:

1. I believe this recording was sung according to the old Solesmes method or Vatican rhythm that Jeff Ostrowski favors. Dotted punctums and episemas are not observed:
https://youtu.be/HxjYWvF5ttc

2. I believe this recording was sung according to the classic Solesmes method of Dom Mocquereau. Rhythmic markings are all observed:
https://youtu.be/708_4DdvsUg

3. I believe this recording was sung according to the semiological principles of Dom Cardine. The broadening and accelerating of some neumes matches the markings of the St. Gall neumes while mostly adhering to the Solesmes notation. Note that the dotted punctum at the end of the word “meus” in the Solesmes edition is not observed because the St. Gall neume for that syllable does not indicate a lengthening:
https://youtu.be/qMbkIsyOGsM

4. This last recording is extremely interesting. It appears to be sung using semiological principles, but the vocalist also uses many ornamental trills(?) that sound like microtones(?) and that make the chant sound more Eastern/Byzantine or even Islamic than Roman:
https://youtu.be/0pi9SXCUXIc]]> examples of same setting, different texts? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19917/examples-of-same-setting-different-texts Thu, 21 Apr 2022 03:34:24 +0000 Geremia 19917@/forum/discussions

Why is the nuptial Mass's gradual, Uxor tua
image

the same setting as a Requiem's, Requiem
image
?
Is this a coincidence or intentional?]]> help: Adiastematic neumes for the neumata in the Nocturnale Romanum, Hartker, 2002 https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20421/help-adiastematic-neumes-for-the-neumata-in-the-nocturnale-romanum-hartker-2002 Thu, 17 Nov 2022 18:12:56 +0000 Lincoln_Hein 20421@/forum/discussions
https://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=14183]]> Vertical position in St. Gall neumes https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20209/vertical-position-in-st.-gall-neumes Tue, 16 Aug 2022 14:21:25 +0000 Andrew Hinkley 20209@/forum/discussions Double clivis with pressus? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18749/double-clivis-with-pressus Wed, 10 Feb 2021 23:50:43 +0000 madorganist 18749@/forum/discussions Perfice (GT 273). Distropha+double clivis with pressus?
image]]> Cardine's "Is Gregorian Chant Measured Music?" https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/14372/cardine039s-is-gregorian-chant-measured-music Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:52:13 +0000 Coemgen 14372@/forum/discussions Is Gregorian Chant Measured Music? which is his critique of Fr. Vollaerts' 1958 Rhythmic Proportions in Early Medieval Ecclesiastical Chant.

This book is of immense (no pun intended) importance to me because it appears to be the bullet that shot down Vollaerts' and Murray's influence on the progress of mensural opinion versus nuanced free rhythm. I imagine Cardine's arguments in this book will be much stronger than those in his Gregorian Semiology.

But I cannot find the book anywhere. Amazon.com, Amazon.co.uk, AbeBooks.com, AbeBooks.co.uk show it unavailable. Google shows e-book unavailable.]]> Narrabo https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19760/narrabo Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:17:02 +0000 Richard Mix 19760@/forum/discussions American Gradual Communions, and noticed, besides two changed words, a melodic discrepancy that seems to go back to the Triplex: "Psallam" after the 2nd bar gets re-mi-do re instead of Solemes d-m-r r. What is the new reading based on?]]> Liquescent Notes in Introit Psalm Tones https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19436/liquescent-notes-in-introit-psalm-tones Tue, 26 Oct 2021 14:05:12 +0000 FSSPmusic 19436@/forum/discussions Liber Usualis, Graduale Romanum, or Gregorian Missal, have you wondered why the Gloria Patri has liquescent notes at Sancto and semper in modes 1, 3, and 7, but not 2, 4, and 8? There is a convention observed in the manuscripts as well as the Vatican edition, with rare exceptions, of not using an epiphonus when the following note is in unison with the lower (first) note. In the introit psalm tones, the epiphonus is not used in this context in the manuscripts, but rather the liquescent form of the pes or torculus sometimes called a pinnosa, e.g., the Easter introit psalm verse at the end of resurrectionem, and Pentecost at the first ejus, before the star. The Vatican edition uses a plain pes/podatus (no. 1 below) in these instances, which is consistent with the general principles for the use of diminutive liquescent notes. Comparative analysis makes it apparent that the correct interpretation of these figures is in fact the same as an epiphonus (2), namely two short notes, the liquid consonant or semivowel voiced on the upper note. Stingl (Gregor & Taube) and Hakkennes (Graduale Lagal) both use the form combining square punctum and cephalicus (3), as does Nickel (Graduale Renovatum). The cephalicus printed as a single note normally represents augmentative liquescence (4 & 5), hence my reluctance to use it in my editions, although it corresponds to the manuscripts. In your opinion, what is the best choice in these instances?
image
1. pes (podatus)
2. epiphonus
3. pinnosa
4. short-long pinnosa
5. pinnosa initio debilis/cephalicus urgens
6. other; please explain in comments

This has been cross-posted to three Facebook groups, where you can answer in the form of a poll:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/627238907310568/posts/4927255027308913/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/757240524904383/posts/894565381171896/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/thecatholicorganists/posts/845897229422637/]]> Editions of the Roman Gradual https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19437/editions-of-the-roman-gradual Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:29:10 +0000 SteveOttomanyi 19437@/forum/discussions
We are finally restarting choirs and I'm unsure which edition--if any--I should purchase for our choir. Some choirs use photocopies, and others use the books. I'd like to know what yous guys have done.

Things to consider (at least, the few that have occurred to me): size of type (the older I get the smaller it seems to get); the weight of the book; the potentially daunting appearance of the text, and overall ease of use.

A particular question is whether to purchase, for the rank-and-file choir members, the 1974 Graduale Romanum or the Graduale Triplex. I will be instructing the choir according to the Rhetorical Method, which involves a study of the interpretation of the multitude of firugæ in modis, so that, as a general rule, they will know how to sing melodic figuræ when they encounter them. In that sense, they may not need the Triplex, but I kind of like the idea of having it. But there is a significant price difference, and I would want to be certain the Triplex would be worth the considerable additional expense.

As for the Graduale Restitutum, I am very tempted to use it--the price is certainly right--but the photocopies are a pain, and there is also the small difference between holding a well-bound book and a binder of photocopies. Also, the restored text is sometimes jarring to me, and I don't always agree with it--in particular, the many "restorations" of the B in mode III and IV--but I digress. The positive is that there are many texts that make much more sense and align properly with the adiastematic manuscripts, and it is more of a performing edition than other.

I appreciate any pertinent input--my thanks in advance. ]]> Question about neume height https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19390/question-about-neume-height Thu, 07 Oct 2021 10:35:28 +0000 Andrew Hinkley 19390@/forum/discussions Hildegard O Euchari Can someone correct my work please? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19051/hildegard-o-euchari-can-someone-correct-my-work-please Sat, 29 May 2021 10:07:02 +0000 Jes 19051@/forum/discussions https://imslp.simssa.ca/files/imglnks/usimg/e/e2/IMSLP80324-PMLP162944-Symphonia_et_Ordo_virtutum.pdf
I have never tried to translate notation like this before so I thought I'd have a go.
I'm starting with this as part of my chant video series because this particular work features heavily in Electronic Dance Music (believe it or not!) I thought this would be a neat opportunity to state that chant is inspired and still inspiring the hearts of the faithful and even giving people a baptism of faith.

and I have made the following:]]> NABC only visible https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18790/nabc-only-visible Mon, 01 Mar 2021 03:38:48 +0000 okus 18790@/forum/discussions So I tried
\gresetnabc{1}{visible} \gresetnotes{invisible}

but \gresetnotes{invisible} gets rid of nabc, nevertheless.

So, is there a way to get only nabc?
]]> Newest Edition of the Liber Hymnarius- Changes https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18763/newest-edition-of-the-liber-hymnarius-changes Tue, 16 Feb 2021 22:05:56 +0000 monasteryliturgist 18763@/forum/discussions
We recently acquired the newest Edition of the LIber Hymnarius which includes the new feasts up to Mary Mother of the Church, Our Lady of Loretto, etc...

We noticed in this edition, compared to the old one. We noticed that the Episema has been removed on all of the hymns and invitatories. The dot to hold (I have no idea if there exists an official name for that) and the Quilisma are retained. So my first thought when I saw the Episema removed was that they removed it in order to help the director of a choir pay attention more to the semiology but considering that the Quilisma and dot are retained, both more modern inventions I am wondering why the Episema would have been removed.

Does anyone have any light on this? I am only wondering because our monastic community is very interested in the semiology but we want to sing it in its proper forms- now there is a little division on interpretation due to so many versions... which one is correct? Beats me... maybe there is no answer.

Sister Marie]]> Nuanced Rhythm before Mocquereau https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18570/nuanced-rhythm-before-mocquereau Tue, 08 Dec 2020 20:41:25 +0000 madorganist 18570@/forum/discussions were mensuralists during the Gregorian centuries; it would be interesting if clear evidence could be cited to show that during the same period there were some who were not mensuralists." Upon reading this, one of my choir members asked me, "Is that really true that there may not have been any non-mensuralists??" My answer: "I'm fairly certain it's true! I've never come across a shred of evidence for 'nuanced' rhythm before the late 19th century."

Am I mistaken? Are there writings - or transcriptions - that I should be aware of? My understanding is that proportional rhythm morphed into a slow/long equalist interpretation, then the Medicean edition altered the neumes but restored a sort of proportional rhythm.]]> GABC/Gregorio Glyph https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/18431/gabcgregorio-glyph Fri, 25 Sep 2020 03:38:36 +0000 madorganist 18431@/forum/discussions image]]> Verses for weekday propers https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/17847/verses-for-weekday-propers Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:38:54 +0000 John L. Wright 17847@/forum/discussions How does one teach semiology? https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/14870/how-does-one-teach-semiology Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:39:22 +0000 Coemgen 14870@/forum/discussions
Are there teaching tools out there, tutorials, curricula, that kind of thing, actually accessible to the public? I've read in articles mention of Cardine's and Agustoni's methods of teaching their students about this stuff, but where can I learn those methods of pedagogy so that I can reproduce them? Ideas?]]>