https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/categories/choral-matters/feed.rss Sun, 10 May 26 23:31:51 +0000 Choral Matters - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum en-CA https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23324/the-oldest-complete-notated-byzantine-chant-divine-liturgy-ever-recorded Fri, 10 Apr 2026 16:34:41 +0000 matthewwilkinson 23324@/forum/discussions
https://youtu.be/NcseP_RJDfs?si=zN91lkJy0gxeRUhH
]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23084/grading-systems-for-liturgical-repertoire Fri, 16 Jan 2026 12:11:12 +0000 Jeffrey Quick 23084@/forum/discussions
There are several grading systems out there on the Net. They are all short on specifics. A rough estimate:
https://alansimmonsmusic.com/about-us/difficulty-levels-explained/
• Very Easy/1
Works in up to 4 parts containing
simple rhythms and harmonies, often with supportive
keyboard accompaniments. Ideal for choirs with limited reading ability.

•• Easy/2
Works in up to 4 parts, mostly with easy rhythms and
harmonies and helpful keyboard accompaniments.

••• Capable/3
Still in up to 4 parts, but containing some challenging
passages, with or without accompaniment.
Require some basic reading skills.

•••• Skilled/4
Works in any scoring, with or without accompaniment,
containing some challenging passages. Require solid reading skills.

••••• Advanced/5
Aimed at selective and professional choirs,
these works are both technically and musically challenging.

Now, in developing specifics, I would suggest a principle: that a grade for a secular choir might not match a grade for a secular/educational choir, just because of the differences in personnel and training. Unlike a high school or even collegiate choir, a church choir is usually made up of mature (often overmature ) singers. And their training and routines are somewhat different. I would expect a piece that is not in the cultural vernacular language to be graded higher. But Latin is part of the cultural vernacular of the Church. (I use 'cultural vernacular' because a piece in Vietnamese aimed at Vietnamese masses will presumably be sung by people who know how to sing Vietnamese.) Vocal ranges might also differ. Tenors and sopranos above F and altos/basses below A suggest a slightly higher grade. Likewise descending 4ths and 5ths, (in any part but bass) or large intervals. Amount of voice crossing and departure from homophony will matter in the lower grades.

Where is Palestrina? 3.5, or 4? Whatever it is, Ockeghem is higher, because of the rhythmic language More than 4 parts means level 4, but fewer parts doesn't necessarily mean a lower grade (cf. Dalitz Tribus vocibus vs. Byrd in 3). Only a very few elite Catholic choirs will be doing Grade 5 music on a regular basis, if for no other reason than rehearsal time.

This is me picking at a possibility. Is there any need for this at all? Am I measuring manure with a micrometer?



]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/20023/does-anyone-know-where-i-can-find-the-hymn-039o-lord-with-wondrous-mystery039-satb Sun, 05 Jun 2022 21:35:53 +0000 doglover1000 20023@/forum/discussions Does anyone know where I can find or anyone have it?
Thanks!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/23017/generational-conflict-between-a-young-music-director-versus-an-aging-and-diminishing-volunteer-choir Mon, 22 Dec 2025 22:40:02 +0000 Dr_Haze 23017@/forum/discussions
My ongoing frustration lies less with music-making and more with pastoral dynamics, particularly with an aging core of long-serving amateur singers. The adult choir is unhappy with change. They seem allergic to chant, and are appalled that I have effectively placed more emphasis on chant during the mass than sacred polyphony. They are feeling underused and clearly want a return to the way things were when past music directors were given vast latitude in programming whatever music merely sounded good to them. There is a sacred file cabinet in our choir loft that has over 70 years worth of legacy repertoire that is "languishing" because I refuse to use it. But why am I avoiding it? Mainly for practical reasons. We don't have a bass section, for one. The average age of our singers is now well over 60. They haven't had more than 13 singers since before the pandemic, and whenever we've been able to add someone new, they don't stay for very long.

Things seemed to be going smoothly as we prepared to begin Advent, but now I'm entrenched in an unfortunate upheaval that started with unsanctioned mass emails being sent between choir members and parish staff behind by back, gossip, back talk, and collective whining. It has brought an enormous amount of angst and stress to several people within our parish, and many were caught off guard by this because ... nobody anywhere in the parish is complaining about the choir.

While my competency and preparation have not been questioned, I increasingly sense a bias rooted in age and change-resistance rather than musical substance. Some singers appear to externalize their own natural vocal decline, stamina issues, or learning challenges and place responsibility on my leadership, as though my presence accelerated what time and biology inevitably bring. I care deeply about honoring their service and humanity, but I’m struggling to discern how to balance truth, charity, and forward momentum without either enabling denial or becoming the convenient scapegoat for loss. I’d be grateful for insight from those who have navigated similar transitions: how do you pastor aging musicians honestly, maintain artistic standards, and protect your own vocation from quiet erosion?]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22944/youth-choir-what-to-do-with-older-boys039-voices Fri, 21 Nov 2025 19:35:47 +0000 magistraelizabeth 22944@/forum/discussions https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22795/communications Tue, 16 Sep 2025 16:35:32 +0000 PhinneasPublick 22795@/forum/discussions
No one reads emails anymore - how are we supposed to be in touch with our ensembles? It's not the length or brevity of the msg, they just don't get opened at all, for groups these people volunteered to be a part of. A yute in one of my choirs suggested mass-texts, which for a short time had some success, but not much. Texts are also obviously a limited mode of communication.

Not a luddite, open to trying anything - this is all ages, various groups and sizes of groups.

Anyone else notice this?
]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21693/eastertide-choir-burnout Fri, 10 May 2024 15:12:35 +0000 trowland87 21693@/forum/discussions
My choir season follows a fall through spring schedule - Sunday after Labor Day through early June, typically. Most of the singers are given a week off following Christmas Day and Easter Sunday, but whereas I have not generally had a problem with attendance when we've picked up again after Christmas, it seems like choir members sort of just zone out after Easter. I've tried to schedule music that would motivate them to keep going, but attendance has still taken a nose dive and I've had to cut some of it. In one choir that usually has about 18 singers, I had 3 at rehearsal a couple weeks ago. And sometimes, even the singers who are there have seemed to have given up on individual preparation between rehearsals; We'll work on a piece of music and, regardless of how much rehearsal time we've put into it previously, it's like they're looking at it for the first time again. That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but in general, choir members seem to be so distracted during the springtime.

Is it just me, or has anyone else been dealing with this as well? Spring seems to be a busy time, with a lot of absences: Travel, graduations, or even springtime allergies have been to blame for a lot of the absences in my choirs. But is it also just a matter of burnout? With the grueling pace of rehearsals leading up to the Triduum, is a week off enough of a breather? (On the other hand, does giving too much of a break kill the momentum of choirs, making it harder to pick back up again?)

Does anyone have any thoughts or tips about dealing with this sort of situation?]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22700/singing-advice-when-you-are-in-an-area-with-poor-air-quality Sun, 10 Aug 2025 16:27:14 +0000 rvisser 22700@/forum/discussions Any advice from those of you that deal with poor air quality on a regular basis? This is my first year living so far north. My normal tricks for dealing with crud while singing aren't working with the smoke. My range is getting more limited, and my voice gets hoarse easily. Sometimes I am not able to sing at all.]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22442/choir-space-decoration Wed, 30 Apr 2025 15:13:30 +0000 kyletoddp 22442@/forum/discussions
Annoyed by the blank walls in our choir room, I sought out some meaningful/inspiring things to hang up online, with no success. So, my wife and I made these graphics in Canva and had them printed on 18"x24" foam core board for $30 each. All are welcome to use for free if you'd like!

Feel free to share any other nice ways you've dressed up your musical space!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22624/papal-mass-at-san-tommaso-di-villanova-castel-gandolfo Sun, 13 Jul 2025 10:00:46 +0000 Maureen 22624@/forum/discussions
The interesting bit is that the choir sings from a small ground floor area on the right hand side (under the painting of the church's patron saint), which is sort of a "pen" surrounded by marble railings. Since the church is small and has a dome, this seems to work well with the acoustics. (You can see the choir during the Kyrie and Gloria.)

The soloist scrambles out at the end of the Gloria, because she has to get into position to sing the Psalm from the ambo. She seems so dignified and experienced that it makes me feel better about my similar scrambles in the past!

The organ pipes are high up on the left side, up by the altar. There's a good trumpeter somewhere, but I never saw him/her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsa5DHulghQ]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/2001/hymn-to-st.-anne Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:57:27 +0000 MaryAnn Carr Wilson 2001@/forum/discussions https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22608/o-jesu-vita-mea-rossini-latin-or-english-unison Sun, 06 Jul 2025 17:15:30 +0000 Roborgelmeister 22608@/forum/discussions
This was "engraved" about 15 years ago by Raymond "Bud" Clark. Most of his later career was in Southern California, around San Diego. He then moved to Cathedral City, and presumably is deceased, although no records of his death have ever been discovered by his many friends.]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6905/how-to-get-.pdf-of-hymns-psalms-and-spiritual-canticles Thu, 24 May 2012 09:40:57 +0000 JLOliver 6905@/forum/discussions
Many thanks.

Jeannette Oliver
St. Mark the Evangelist
Hyattsville, Maryland]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22590/general-resource-for-catholic-choir-music Sat, 28 Jun 2025 13:32:47 +0000 JKW 22590@/forum/discussions
Where can I find a comprehensive list or resource for Catholic sacred choral music? Also looking for selections to be intermediate level or below as we have members that can't yet read music. ]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22459/some-easy-choral-pieces-by-contemporary-polish-composers Mon, 05 May 2025 05:54:51 +0000 chonak 22459@/forum/discussions
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/r0g7n0vob144uza5ia9xx/EMW-sample.pdf?rlkey=xpw4lw9savaldfqmf0r5dcahx&st=gijnlova&dl=0

Most of them are structured with a refrain and verses; a few are Taize-like ostinato refrains.

Please post a comment if you try any of these with your choirs.

Here's one of the pieces performed at World Youth Day:

https://youtu.be/FOO4Eay14ck

]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22424/sheet-music-by-benedictines-of-mary-queen-of-apostles Thu, 24 Apr 2025 22:27:39 +0000 mjballou 22424@/forum/discussions Has anyone used their musical arrangements? What was your experience? Thanks for any enlightenment shed and for recommendations of other sources. (Yes, I know CPDL and IMSP.)
Mary Jane Ballou, just back from Holy Week in Madrid ]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/15751/media-vita Tue, 13 Feb 2018 03:38:08 +0000 Geometricus 15751@/forum/discussions
The drone is not ideal, but it seems to have a dramatic effect on listeners. Many comments after mass on this piece, having performed this with three different groups five times over the last three weeks. My friend and collaborator Jacob Flaherty thought I should post it here.]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/2796/your-favorite-christmas-carol-sacred-miscellany-wants-to-know Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:31:32 +0000 mjballou 2796@/forum/discussions
I'm in the pre-planning phase for next year's Christmas album. Let me know your favorite carol. (No, you won't win anything.) Why do I ask? Because all of you think about music all the time - and because you might have favorites that I don't know or have overlooked.

Please go to Sacred Miscellany, my blog and let me know.]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/22052/frustrated-with-new-choir-director Sun, 17 Nov 2024 05:41:17 +0000 Birdsong 22052@/forum/discussions

My difficulty is with the new director. When we first began rehearsing, she announced that we would have cantors to lead the Responsorial Psalm and Gospel Acclamation. She said if anyone wanted to cantor, to come see her. I indicated my interest, and she has pretty much ignored me. She allowed another choir member to cantor, so I do not understand why she isn't allowing me to. When I asked about it a second time, she was very evasive, and said that I shouldn't focus on cantoring. She didn't give me any constructive criticism or guidance on what I would need to work on to be able to cantor. She did give me a small solo in a hymn-- it's half a measure, if that.


I understand, of course, that I am not owed this. I understand that it is a privilege just to sing with many gifted people. I am frustrated because I want to keep improving and being challenged, plus the choir director put this out there to begin with. It strikes me as unfair, especially since the regular cantors aren't perfect. Some of them struggle to learn a piece, but she helps them. Another frustration I have is due to the director being very obvious about who her favorites are. Some of the choir members from the parish we merged with have more training, and so they always get the descants and get to cantor more often, plus they have something called a schola where five of them sing advanced arrangements of hymns.


At times I have wondered if the director is somehow prejudiced against me. I am the only one in the choir who veils. Maybe she doesn't like that? Seems a petty reason not to allow someone to cantor, but I cannot think of any other reason.


At this point, I am not sure if I should stay, resume voice lessons, and hope that she notices my improvement, or if I should just quietly leave. I could explore other choirs in my area for opportunities to cantor.




]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/7963/pronunciation-of-h-in-latin Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:48:23 +0000 Andrew Motyka 7963@/forum/discussions Hodie Christus Natus Est. I realized that I have always taught my choirs to make all Latin "H's" silent (excepting mihi and nihil).

Then it dawned on me that I have never pronounced "Hodie" as "Odie." Like a good director, I consulted my Latin Pronunciation Guide in the Parish Book of Chant, where I was reassured that the H is never aspirant, always silent, meaning my pronunciation of "Hodie" is wrong.

On the other hand, John Collins' Primer of Ecclesiastical Latin informs me that the H is pronounced like in "hat," not like in "hour." In other words, it is pronounced.

So, long story short, is a Latin H pronounced? How do you say "Hodie?"]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19418/your-favourite-masses Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:14:44 +0000 smt 19418@/forum/discussions
although we had similar threads – we didn't have exactly that question. So just out of curiosity – what are your favourite Mass settings?

My experience is that it is not so easy to find a good and fitting setting nowadays. The available material is overwhelming and much of the classic polyphonic masses are too long or (for modern ears) ... hmm, monotonous? At least it's my experience after listening to too much of renaissance choral music: in the end most of it sounds similar. Sorry for being so ignorant. – That's why Victoria is one of my favourite composers, as his compositions are often a bit more colourful, there are changes in rhythm, some more dissonances, catchy melodies etc.

Also: I always enjoy it to find nice Masses besides the ones we all know.

But maybe your favourite settings are from another time period?

So, if I may start with a short list:

Byrd, Mass for three voices (a classic, but simply one of the best for the OF)
Victoria, Missa Quarti Toni (I think some amateur choirs sing it, but there is no good recording as far as I can see; very catchy lines)
Magalhaes, Missa si ignoras te (glad that our conductor digged out this one)
Jacobus Clemens non Papa, Missa pro defuncto (a Requiem setting, but truly sublime)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and recommendations!

]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21865/seeking-responsorial-psalms-and-repertoire-for-treble-choir Fri, 09 Aug 2024 18:34:29 +0000 Brysonfoster33 21865@/forum/discussions
I’m currently leading a choir composed entirely of treble voices (Soprano and Alto) at my parish, and I'm looking to challenge them musically by incorporating choral psalm verses. We use the responsorial psalm in our liturgy, and so far, I’ve been using the Gelineau psalms, having the sopranos and altos sing the treble line while I play the tenor and bass parts on the organ. This arrangement works well, but I'm eager to find something specifically written for 2-3 part treble voices or SSA, to both challenge the choir and add variety to our repertoire.

Does anyone know of any collections of responsorial psalms that are specifically arranged for treble choirs? Additionally, I would appreciate recommendations for sources where I could find anthems and other suitable repertoire for a treble ensemble.

Thank you for your assistance!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21843/an-anecdote-on-musicologists-and-hip Wed, 31 Jul 2024 11:38:22 +0000 smt 21843@/forum/discussions
a small anecdote I wanted to share:

Recently we started to work on Bruckner's Vexilla Regis in our ensemble. I got into smaller interpretation discussion with our conductor. If you look into editions of the work from CPDL, a crescendo is noted beginning with bar 7. She wanted to stick to that. I suggested to start with the crescendo in bar 6 with the ascending line in the soprano. No, no way - in 19th century music composers already used very detailed expression signs to which we should stick as closely as possible. (My approach would be more liberal in this point but ...)

However, this triggered my interest and curiosity. Is the crescendo really from Bruckner or was it a mistake by some CPDL editor (although I very much trust James Gibb)?

The autograph and first editions are easily available on IMSLP. You can quickly find out the following:
Bruckner composed this motet for holy week 1892 in St Florian. (It was a center of the Cecilian Movement at that time. So the musical context of the motet's premiere on Good friday 1892 was Victoria, Palestrina and chant. Bruckner stuck out a bit.)
Bruckner probably set the music for all 7 stanzas of the hymn (4-5 are written under the score but it seems improbable that should be sung with the chant melody wheras all five other with Bruckner's music). He used the liturgical text of his time, which was the "enhanced" by Urban VIII and companions. He did not compose a closing "Amen".

The most influential edition of Bruckner's work however was the 1939 Edition Peters edition. It changed the text to the original hymn from Venantius. It set three stanzas under the music (1 + last two). It added an "Amen". That's the basis of most recordings or other editions, such as the CPDL ones.

Back to my initial argument: It also came out that the 1939 edition changed the dynamic signs a bit. When you look closely into Bruckner's autograph or the first print you will see that the (de)crescendo have generally a broader range (in terms of time not volume). "My" crescendo clearly starts in bar 6.

However in the course of my investigation I came across a recent essay of a musicologist on this motet. He not only tells the story of this work, its premiere and editions but also makes some conclusions. Most importantly: It is urgent time that we get rid of the "false" text and start to sing the "correct" one - the Urbanite version. For HIP reasons he is willing to exchange Venantius masterpiece and stick to the cheap copy. I was really baffled. I thought we had already overcome this extreme period of HIP.

BTW I did not tell anything of that to my conductor as I am good choir member and do not interfere in interpretation matters which are in the hand of the conductor only. ;-)]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/3213/setting-of-byzantine-the-wisdom-of-god Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:47:08 +0000 Heath 3213@/forum/discussions
Here's the text:

"The wisdom of God that restrains the untamed fury of the waters that are above the firmament,
that sets a bridle on the deep and keeps back the seas, now pours water into a basin;

The Master who wraps the heaven in clouds girds himself with a towel;
and he in whose hand is the life of all things kneels down to wash the feet of the servants."

Thanks in advance!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21552/christos-anesti-need-of-help Tue, 12 Mar 2024 03:08:16 +0000 sdtalley3 21552@/forum/discussions
I'm hoping some of the members here can point me in the right direction. My Schola Director wanted me to transcribe the song/chant, Christós anésti, utilizing chant notation...I figured out pretty quickly this was not suitable for the rhythm of the chant, and its like one of the only few chants outside the normal use of the Roman rite we use, and trust me I'd like to "borrow" more. The choir director sent me a few voice clips from when she learned it by ear. I punched it out on Finale, but I'd like to know if anyone can identify the actual music based upon what I transcribed?....

Please, thank you, and God Bless!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21430/favorite-score-mass-for-3-voices-william-byrd Mon, 22 Jan 2024 03:56:32 +0000 MaestroMark32 21430@/forum/discussions
Can you please recommend your favorite score for the Mass for Three Voices by William Byrd as found on CPDL or IMSLP? There are many different scores for this Mass out there.

My very talented, very ambitious choir of six voices generally sings SAB. They have decided tackle William Byrd's Mass for 3 Voices. After a bit of experimenting with just one short movement, we believe we can pull it off by moving the Sopranos to Alto, and the Altos to Tenor.

I gathered rehearsal scores from two differing sources on YouTube and made them lists to be able to practice their part.

Any advice you have would be appreciated.

Thanks!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21385/best-repertoire-for-freshman-high-school-choir Wed, 03 Jan 2024 21:15:31 +0000 Earl_Grey 21385@/forum/discussions
Just scrolling though the standard offerings of the major choral publishers is depressing. Not interested in any show choir music, pop music, woke music, or any twaddle. As they develop, I'd like to introduce them to the master works, but I need some pedagogical repertoire first to get them there. ]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21235/when-to-combinesplit-choirs Mon, 23 Oct 2023 02:11:08 +0000 AnimaVocis 21235@/forum/discussions
Short of the long: I began the schola in October last year when I arrived at the parish. The choir (think Notre Dame Folk Choir in style and substance) was directed by another individual who just recently resigned before the beginning of this year.

(Side note: the choirs trade off singing every week at the 9am Mass. This is odd to me and I don't like the idea of not having 1 choir sing at the same Mass every week....)

The "Schola" is as regular as a a volunteer group can be. The "Choir" is regularly missing people, but doesn't have the strength to be confident if more than 2 people are gone.

I know the answer is to combine choirs. The question I have is as follows:

How long should I wait to combine the choirs?- to recruit for both, begin outreach for both, and invest in both choirs in that manner before I should decide to combine the two? 2 months? 6 months? Next choral season?

Question 2: if I combine the choirs, I would have. 25 voiced schola (though not equally balanced... ~5 basses, 4 tenors, 7 Altos, 9 sopranos). My cap is (ideally) 24 with 6 on a part.

If we get much bigger, it's hard to continue to do chant in an effective manner with SO many voices- its just to hard to teach them to listen when they get that many people. (I already have my schola split into a men's schila and women's schola regarding propers..) when would it become pertinent to split the choirs into 2 again?

Any thoughts? Any ideas?]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21212/piece-recommendations-christmasadvent-ssa-strings Wed, 11 Oct 2023 20:29:05 +0000 Brysonfoster33 21212@/forum/discussions
I’m looking for a piece to use for Christmas lessons and carols that’s for treble choir (2-part/SA/SSA/etc) and Strings!

I have a string quartet coming in and i want the choir to have a chance to sing with them outside of hymns. If anyone has any recommendations or suggestions please let me know. I’d prefer the String parts already be published/printable.

Bonus points if it also includes organ.

Thank you!!]]> https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/21098/gelineau-psalms Sat, 26 Aug 2023 15:10:41 +0000 Brysonfoster33 21098@/forum/discussions
I’m posting to start a discussion and see if anyone has advice/teaching methods on how to introduce the Gelineau psalms to my choir.

My choir is about 12 people and I would love for them to sing the tones in 4- part harmony. I do think they can handle it, I just want to introduce and teach this style of psalm to them with the smoothest transition and highest success rate.

Any stories, tips, or tricks will be appreciated!

-
Yours in christ.]]>