"...Semper retineri potest."
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    On p. 811 of the Graduale Romanum/Triplex is found the note, "Hic tonus B semper retineri potest." It is in reference to the doxology chant in the order of the Mass.

    I can figure out the individual meaning of the words, but I can't make sense of what it means.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    It means it can always be used, even though it's marked "solemnis" .As on the previous page where the same phrase is explained more fully regarding the preface dialogue. In general the notes suggest that any of those tones can be used, despite their designation as solemn or simple or what have you.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Check out p. 810, where there is a remark about one of the tones for the preface dialogue:

    Hic tonus B retineri potest cum praefationis tono tam sollemni quam simplici.


    What this is saying is essentially that if you want, you can use the "B" tone at any time, irrespective of whether the preface is in the simple or solemn tone.

    Then, the remark on p. 811 is just the same thing, but since from p. 810 you know what it means already, they haven't bothered to write it out in full all over again.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    For whatever reason, the Roman solemn tones are labeled as such but almost always can be used. (Due to antiquity/authenticity?) The oration and Gospel tones come to mind, to the point where I dislike the other tones-especially because the English Mass tinkered with the oration tone so it is sung incorrectly per the traditional books, and quite frankly, per common sense.

    The traditional rubric does limit the preface tone & the Pater Noster, but Ash Wednesday and Requiem Masses are about it for days where it must be used and where a priest is likely to sing the Mass. Even votive Masses which are sung can use the solemn tone if said for serious cause–any privileged votive Mass, like the First Friday and First Saturday Masses or those of the Forty Hours Prayers are automatically exempted.

    The new rite goes further and mandates the solemn tone for the oratio super oblata (& the preface) if the anaphora is sung. Now, it is interesting that in English, the dialogue is that of the simplex preface for ostensible reasons of congregational simplicity, but at least recently, my ear only has picked up the solemn tone. Are there in fact two tones in English, or do priests supply the solemn tone themselves?
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Thank you for your responses. I feel foolish for either missing the previous note or not making the connection, but I feel edified nonetheless.

    Is the solemn tone mandated for the Offertory prayer, or simply recommended because it segues nicely into the preface dialogue?
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,937
    Mandated because of the segue.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    You mean one is able to demand a nice musical transition? As opposed to some smörgåsbord of disparate musical styles with no relation?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    In the Gradual it is warmly encouraged (aptius) but in the Appendix to the Missal it actually says "must". Couldn't believe my eyes.
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Is that only in the Latin version, or all Missals?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    Well, that "must" is English, actually. In review the rhetoric of "[w]hen the Eucharistic Prayer is sung to the tone in the Missal, the Prayer Over The Offerings must be sung according to the solemn tone" sounds aesthetic to me rather than legislative, to be honest. As if to suggest "..., because it's the one that sounds right", which indeed it is.
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    It makes you wonder, though, when the Eucharistic Prayer would be sung to a tone not in the Missal.
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    The Eucharistic Prayer might just be spoken.

    Actually, when this is done without using a microphone, it can approximate the effect of the silent Canon.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,703
    @JonathanKK

    I know a priest that does this! He celebrates the OF 'ad orientem' ! and also says a few prayers after Mass, interesting they are the same prayers found in my EF hand Missal!
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    when the Eucharistic Prayer would be sung to a tone not in the Missal.


    I'm going to guess that you've never heard Marty Haugen's chant for the Canon of the Mass?

  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 337
    Oh, no...

    Edit: Why?!
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