Liturgists and Latinists: Latin Proper Hanc Igitur for Nuptial Mass
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    So the proper Hanc Igitur for the Nuptial Mass (at least in the OF) contains the names of the bride and groom. If the Canon is being said in Latin, should the spouses' names be translated into Latin, making Skyler and Reghan "Scholasticus" and "Regina", or should I turn Skyler into "Scholaris" which is closer to my name but isn't a Latin proper noun (that I can find) or should they just be pronounced as english?

    Any thoughts?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    I don't know what past custom/practice was, but I think sticking to their actual names is preferable, unless the couple expressly desires Latinity in that regard. (Which brings up a related question: were people invariably baptized with Latin cognates?) For one thing, there are many names these days for which there is no Latin cognate whatsoever.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    I have 7 Children, they have all been Baptised in Latin with the names rendered into Latin. At our Parish we have between 4 and 8 Baptisms a year from our TLM community at least 50% have a full Latin Baptism... The others use the option of having some of the Rite to an approved translation...
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    (Which brings up a related question: were people invariably baptized with Latin cognates?)

    In them thar days: Yes. Look at an old Baptismal register from before the council, the earlier the better. Until the '50s all sacramental registers were done completely in Latin, so you would see an entry that Joannes Thomas O'Malley, the son of Timotheus Joannes O'Malley and Maria Anna O'Toole, was baptized by Pr. Franciscus Clementus Fitzgerald, the sponsors being Matilda Josephina O'Toole and Rondaldus Dominicus O'Malley.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Well, I've seen microfiche of hand-written registers from the middle-to-late 19th century in Ireland, and the names are all vernacular, though the orthography was inconsistent (not surprising in the context).
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I'm just going by The Godfather, a reliable source if ever there was one, but in the baptism scene at the end of the film the priest properly refers to the baptizand, Connie's son Michael, as "Michaëlem" in the accusative where the ritual text calls for it.

    That said, the name has to have an actual Latin equivalent, as Guglielmus is the equivalent of William; I believe there's no evidence that "Skyler" is related to Scholasticus (it's a deformation of the Dutch name Schuyler). The Skylers and Skylars and Braydens and Nevaehs of the world will just have to live with their names being undeclinable nouns, as Hebrew names are in the Vulgate.
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I'm just going by The Godfather,


    I love this.
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor CHGiffen
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    "Skyler", through "Schuyler" is supposedly derived from the Latin "scholaris" as "scholar" is in English, so either using the name form "Scholasticus" or simply the noun form "Scholaris" seems fitting for the Latin equivalent.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    However,
    "is supposedly derived" ≠ "is derived"
    "scholaris" ≠ "Scholasticus"
    "Scholaris" ≠ a real name
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    It's tenuous, but I'll take what I can get.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    There is a St. Scholastica, of course, the sister of St. Benedict, so proposing Scholasticus as a name is not absurd. (There is a St. John Scholasticus among the Eastern Orthodox, too; he was a patriarch of Constantinople in the 6th c.)

    Is Skyler the man's baptismal name?
    Thanked by 2Vilyanor CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,939
    Easy answer for names without a cognate or aren’t saints’ names: John or Joseph and Maria or Elizabeth were given at baptism. It’s bad enough to deny the child an obvious intercessor (or a few) even with a name like “Faith” or “Grace,” which are nevertheless Christian. It is annoying that a recent WASPy naming practice, instead of Old Testament saints or virtues is to make last names, especially in the mother’s line, first names. Catholics embrace the old practice and seemed to have skipped naming the men interesting names in favor of changing the gender. A name like “Madison” comes to mind.

    There are also legitimate medieval Latin spellings of names like “William” that show the shifts in spelling where “Gu” gives way to “W.” FWIW.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    “Gu” gives way to “W.” FWIW FGuIGu.

    Not giving way?
    Thanked by 3Vilyanor MarkThompson Casavant Organist
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I was baptized Skyler Joseph, so between the first and middle name, I'm not sure what constitutes the baptismal name.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Well, then I suppose: Salve, Scholastice!
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,939
    I also hope that I didn’t insult you...my family and I just had a rant about that the other night, so it was fresh on my mind.

    Both, then. Josephus works.

    CHGiffen: hehehe.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Vilyanor
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    No worries, it's one of the problems of incomplete scholarship. I'm curious as to what exactly the rant was about? I'm interested in etymology and names and such (as is probably apparent).
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