Polyphony vs. propers (and a possible reconciliation)
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Long story short, I've got a group that really wants to do the Kevin Allen three-part "Motecta" pieces. The group anticipates doing them at Offertory or Communion — in place of the propers, I think. Of course, I'm thrilled about singing the "Motectas"; also of course, I'm hesitant about replacing propers.

    Here's the question: Would it be okay to insert psalm-tone recitations of the proper texts in between repetitions of the Motecta pieces (that is, instead of the particular psalms that are offered in the Motecta books)? And for that matter, could such a practice be done with any other polyphonic piece, assuming that it'd be prudent to repeat the entire piece in the first place?

    (For the sake of argument, please assume that singing the proper chant either before or after the polyphonic piece isn't an option… at least for now.)

    We sort of discussed this back when Motecta was first announced. (Also! I'm a bit alarmed to see that the links to the PDF previews on the Motecta main page no longer work.)
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    If you're talking EF, I believe the proper has to come first (assuming you don't have polyphony for the proper text). However, you could psalmtone the proper before the polyphony.

    If you're talking OF, you can do whatever the heck you want.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    One could certainly use Rossini-style recitations of the Propers as you mention. But why? There's an appointed melody---why deviate from it if your choir can do it? And they obviously can if they're up to the level of singing 3-part polyphony.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Mark,

    I'm going to make an uneducated guess about your situation.

    The motecta you're discussing set the same text as the Gregorian Propers?

    If that's true, then just as one could use psalm tones or recto tono singing of such things, I believe one could use polyphonic settings of the text.

    Could one use Isaac's polyphonic setting of Puer natus est nobis on Christmas morning? I think so, for this was the intended purpose of the composition. Could one use a polyphonic setting of Unus Militum for the Sacred Heart, at Communion? Logically, yes.

    On the other hand: could one use a polyphonic Ave Verum to replace the text Laetatus sum? I would emphatically conclude the negative.

    God bless,

    Chris
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Thanks, folks. (Ben, this is a serious-minded OF… I'm trying to approach it as such, at least. Just because I can do whatever the heck I want doesn't mean I should.)

    Chris, no… the texts for the various Motecta pieces are generally not the texts of the propers for the day. The Motecta collection is comprised of quite beautiful, and short, three-part polyphonic pieces with sacred texts. They're intended for use at Offertory or Communion, and are short enough to be repeated — and indeed, the composer provides us with psalms to sing on psalm tones in between repetitions of the polyphony.

    I don't want to avoid the propers… not at all. And yes, I know that there are often (but not always) other polyphonic settings of the proper texts to be found. But man… these "Motecta" pieces are awfully nice. Their texts only match the designated propers of the day only rarely… and gosh, it would be fantastic if Kevin set more propers. I guess I'm trying to have it both ways here… polyphony and propers.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    If you're in the OF, I wouldn't see any problem with doing the motet first, then doing the proper text as you suggest as part of the piece. My opinion is that the important thing is that the text itself be sung. I see no problem with doing what you suggest.

    Another option:
    You could use motet first at the offertory, then the SEP proper offertory chant, allowing you to use the verses to time the music perfectly, adding just enough verses (and repetitions of the antiphon) until the celebrant gets to the lavabo, when you would wrap up the chant

    This sort of thing wouldn't be allowed in the EF, but it is one of the positive aspects of the OF's flexibility. While the options can be annoying at times, there is a legitimate use for them.

    I'm not sure if you're going for all latin OF or if something like SEP would work, but that seems like it might be a good option for you.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I must admit that this is exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks, Ben. (I'd be curious to know if others agree!)
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    In the EF, the polyphony may only substitute if it is the same text. Palestrina wrote a motet for almost every text in the Graduale Romanum. Certainly, nearly all the offertory texts are set to motets in 5 voices.

    In the OF, the polyphony may substitute as "et alius cantus aptus."
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I'm very grateful for Palestrina's settings!

    Trying to find polyphonic settings for the proper texts for Christ the King is proving to be quite difficult, at least so far. (I see from Wikipedia that it "is a relatively recent addition to the western liturgical calendar, having been instituted in 1925 by Pope Pius XI. In 1970 its observance was moved to the last Sunday of Ordinary Time.")

    I found a setting of "Postula a me" (Offertory) by our own Jeffrey Quick over on CPDL. I'd appreciate any other known sources for polyphony for that and/or for "Sedebit Dominus Rex" (Communion for Years B & C), or even for "Dignus est Agnus" (Introit, though we'll probably do the chant for that one).
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Mark,

    Trying to find polyphonic settings for the proper texts for Christ the King is proving to be quite difficult,


    sounds like a dare for a budding composer.

    God bless,

    Chris

    Thanked by 1Mark M.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    harleymartin, I'm trying to avoid "alius cantus aptus" like… well, like I would avoid an anthrax-lined envelope.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    In the OF, the concept is actually the same, polyphony is a actually an "option 1" if the text the same.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Has anyone contacted Aristotle Esguerra and inquired as to additions to his CPDL database, besides Jeffrey Quick's Offertory?
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Yes, I took up this dare over a dozen years ago....

    I have a chant-based setting of the "Dignus est Agnus" Introit (and almost every other Introit of the "choral year"), where the unadulterated chant line is the soprano voice, and it's harmonized underneath.
    See here, where they're for sale (very modestly priced: I sell PDF's, and then you make as many copies as you like):
    http://www.benesonarium.com/catalog/

    And for audio samples of other introits (alas, not that one), see here, and scroll down to "The Introit Project":
    http://www.benesonarium.com/audio-samples/

    I'm presently writing (and re-writing) SATB Offertories in English (using the translation of the Lumen Christi Missal) for the whole "choral year" as well. Here's last year's setting of the Christ the King Offertory, based on my own "distillation" of the chant melody. It's short enough to use with psalm verses. (I'll write a longer setting when that liturgy comes around this fall.)
    Off_ChristTheKing_SATB_Mueller.pdf
    142K
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen rich_enough
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    Whoa! Chris Mueller is here on the forum!

    Thanks for all of this… I'll check 'em out!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    How about offertory motets based on the GS or BFW offertory texts?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Chris, that looks like a very cool project! I hope you don't mind that I've added it to my listing of propers on my website under both introits and offertories. Feel free to send me a PM here on the forum if there's any additional details you'd like to add or things to change.

    http://blog.yankehome.com/index.php/projects/propers-resources/
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Ben - thanks for the additions to your site. Very thorough compilation you've assembled! One quick revision: although the Offertory posted above is based on a "distilled" chant melody, the majority of my Offertories are free-composed, and not chant-based at all. So the description on your site may need a minor tweak.

    Mark M. - thanks for your kind words. I'm just another working church musician, aiming for music that magnifies the inherent beauty of the liturgy.
    Thanked by 2Mark M. Ben
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Thanks for the kind words, CHM! I've updated the site.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    CGM -
    that score...

    NICE FONTS.
    Thanked by 2Mark M. Ben
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Caslon all the way, my sylvan brother
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
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