Pronunciation Help!
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 74
    Hi all, can someone render in IPA: Tra le Sollecitudini? My Italian is not great. I have read it, and I will be talking about it soon in my area and want to be sure that I am pronouncing it correctly! Thanks.
  • Hilary CesareHilary Cesare
    Posts: 75
    trɑ le sɔletʃi:tu:di:ni:

    This should help too: this pronunciation of the long word. (Just change the last vowel to "i" as in "ink" to make the word plural. But that recording helps with the stress of the word.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen cmbearer noel jones, aago
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 74
    Thanks! This will help. My original Google search did not yield that web page. I appreciate your help.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If your area is highly educated, do it. If not, dump the Italian and any Latin titles and speak English.

    The moment any of use use Latin or Italian to express the need for change, ears seem to close automatically. There is change - but the change is people ignoring what your message is instead of being open.

    Think of it like this: Someone you know tries to explain something to you and starts using a very thick British accent. Feel like they are talking down to you? They probably are. Speaking a foreign language in front of a person - also can be seen as rudeness.

    Just a few words can slit your throat! On the other hand my ability to speak a few words of welcome in Korean (안녕하세요, 미아!) has caused me to be welcomed by the lovely Korean community in this area. And they do not spare the Kimchii, which has its own "Lactobacillus kimchii".

    Of course, if you are teaching seminarians. go for it, they need it. The Italian/Latin, not the Kimchii.
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 74
    The area IS highly educated, I would think. I've only been here a year, but it is a university town.

    I want to call the document, i.e. the motu proprio of Pope St. Pius X by it's common name (and pronounce it correctly!) I agree with you CC, that we don't want to scare people off by using terms that some may or may not understand. However, it will be fully explained in English! And I also want to give them the resources to find out more on their own. I myself, when I hear something intriguing, want to be equipped with enough information so that I can find out more.

    Certainly, most people can handle a name in a foreign language, no? Otherwise, that's like being asked to call Giuseppe Verdi: Joe Green. Am I really giving people too much credit? (serious question)

    I think it is safe to use the title Tra le Sollecitudini. I will, of course, be drawing from it in English. By the way, I love all the helpful advice from the forum, from everyone!! I'm glad I found it.
    Thanked by 2Hilary Cesare Gavin
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I think that you could get away without a problem if you were to refer to it in English from the beginning and then mention the original Italian at the end for those who want to look it up and study it one their own.

    Personally, I'm not sure what a muto proprio is, even though I lived over there, coached singers in singing Italian, inserted Italian texts into opera scores using translations that were done for the works. If (and when, because it happens) people use the words Muto Proprio to me it just indicates the speaker belongs to some club that I'm not part of and they really don't care enough about me to say, Pope _________ on his own impulse wrote this and signed it himself...which maked perfect sense until I read:

    An important effect of the issue of a document in this way is that a rescript containing the clause "motu proprio" is valid and produces its effect even in cases where fraud would ordinarily have vitiated the document, since the Pope does not rely on the reasons alleged when he grants a favour.

    Which makes me think that there is something about this that is...fishy? Slightly tainted? Sort of Italian intrigue you'd find in a Rossini opera?

    Do what you want. I'm sure you have the best of intentions and will be well received.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    About speaking English or Italian: in addition to Noel's tip about avoiding foreign languages, there is the intermediate step of saying the foreign title, but with an American accent. Use American "r"s, etc.

    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Mad_Dan_EcclesMad_Dan_Eccles
    Posts: 51
    Someone you know tries to explain something to you and starts using a very thick British accent. Feel like they are talking down to you? They probably are.


    I have had such an accent since I first learned to talk - though some of the West Riding sounds have calmed down over the decades. Do I really have that effect?

    There is an international academic English which is less a mater of accent than of delivery - a sort of international Sheldon-Cooper-ese - which may have origins in Standard English English, and this can definitely come across as "I'm clever and you're not"

    Authentic pronunciation is a trap; unless you are delivering the speech in Italian, less is likely to be more as people may tend seize on the potentially awkward shift from Saxon to Romance more than they do the content.
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 74
    I don't think I can pull off an authentic Italian accent, and it would be pretentious to try, so it will sound American. I just want to see that I have all the syllabic stresses in the correct places and use all the correct sounds. I was mostly unsure of the "c" in Sollecitudini.

    I was not sure if it was said as in "cat" or "receive" or "church".

    trɑ le sɔletʃi:tu:di:ni: This clears it up!

    I appreciate the advice. Honestly, I had not given those ideas any thought before. I will certainly use your collective experience and your tips in the discussion, by explaining a little bit more about the title. Thank you so much for your help!
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