Propers in French
  • Carlos_Hamel
    Posts: 4
    Hello,

    I am a priest in France. I would like to know if anyone knows if there exists a book or something to sing the propers of the Mass in french as the one that exists in english.

    Thank you very much, may God bless you,

    Fr Carlos
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    This would be most interesting to see, if it does exist! I assume that you mean a French equivalent of the Palmer-Burgess Plainchant Gradual, or Bruce Ford's American Gradual. Sad, isn't it? We would have thought such a project would have been completed with high priority decades ago in every vernacular.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Hello Fr. Carlos,

    I also live in France and have never seen such a thing. I'm afraid that the music here is in a very sorry state, in my opinion. Perhaps the closest thing would be the Liturgie Chorale du Peuple de Dieu by Gouzes.

    If, Stateside, you thought the scene was dominated by the big publishers, then I think it's even worse here. Almost half (perhaps I exaggerate) of our hymn book seems to contain hymn texts written by one man (Didier Rimaud). You will struggle to find any texts (or translations of traditional Latin hymns) from before 1970 - some of Gouzes' work is an exception. As for the music, there's a clique of about 5 or 6 composers that dominate and some of their work is very mediocre.

    So, I run a Gregorian schola and, hence, steer clear of most of this. Anyway, being English, I don't really like singing in French and prefer to spare the congregation the pain of listening to me.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Carlos_Hamel
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Q -
    Being English, are you familiar with the Palmer-Burgess Plainchant Gradual? Have you ever used it? I suppose that since you are evidently serving a French parish it would not be appropriate there; but what about your time in Britain? Would there be a French equivalent of Sir Philip Sydney's Plainsong Hymnbook? Perhaps, lacking a long tradition of liturgy in the French language, such things have had no reason to appear (though it HAS been quite awhile since the council: surely some Frenchman has answered this need!).
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    Fr. Carlos et al,

    Please contact the choirmaster Sylvain Dieudonne at the Cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris. There are some projects regarding the propers in French. He will know more than I do.

    Thanked by 5Ally CHGiffen Carlos_Hamel Ben Ralph Bednarz
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Dear MJO,

    I am aware of this plainchant gradual. I don't actually use it, but, we do have an English Mass where I live - there being a reasonable concentration of anglophones - and I sometimes use the Simple English Propers.

    If, indeed, there is such a project in French, then I would be very interested to know more about it.
  • Carlos_Hamel
    Posts: 4
    Thanks, is reliable the Liturgie Chorale du Peuple de Dieu by Gouzes?

  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    Are the French texts available online?
    Good luck in your quest, Fr. Hamel. Best to your FSJ colleagues.
    Thanked by 1Carlos_Hamel
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Dear Fr. Carlos,

    Radio Présence has a 30 minute programme each week on this music by Gouzes. You can listen to their programmes using the link below:

    http://www.radiopresence.com/spip.php?rubrique20

    Just look for La liturgie chorale du peuple de Dieu in the Emission du jour box and you can listen to them.
    Thanked by 1Carlos_Hamel
  • Carlos_Hamel
    Posts: 4
    I can't find the proper of the Mass online,
    I'll continue to search...
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    There is no revised translation into French yet, though, am I right? So a Comme-le-prévoit style translation is still current.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    For the Propers (the Gregorian ones, I mean) your best bet would be the Missel Grégorien, from Solesmes - making use of their translations. For the missal antiphons; these are quite easy to get from any French hand missal.

    The current French translation of the Mass has not been revised, although I have heard rumours of it happening sometime.
    Thanked by 1Carlos_Hamel
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    Just remembered. You can get a full index/translation of the Propers here:

    http://www.gregorien.info/

    I think their translations may be taken from the Solesmes Missel Grégorien.
    Thanked by 1Carlos_Hamel
  • Carlos_Hamel
    Posts: 4
    Thanks.
    The exact site for the text of the proprers is http://gregorien.info/calendar/festivo/fr

    The translation is not too far from the official one, there are several of them that are identical actually.
  • StephenHelferty
    Posts: 4
    Does anyone know of any updates/news in this department? It would be wonderful if there were a resource for small parishes with amateur musicians from which they could sing the propers en Français.

    I know Adam Bartlett has worked in English and Spanish, and several others have produced resources in English as well (e.g., Fr. Sam Weber). Perhaps one such composer would know the status of settings for the propers in French.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    Contact the Schola Ste. Cecile in Paris and their director Henry Adam de Villiers. I believe he knows of some projects.

    Also, the current translation is presently not being revised. There is some discussion but frankly, the French did a pretty good job in their translation, owing to their love of their language. Oh that the Anglos in the world did such a job... :(
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Henri's e-mail address is listed on the New Liturgical Movement site, where he writes occasionally.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I believe the nuns at Sacre Coeur may sing French plainsong propers.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    They do Kathy. I have asked them twice to show me and they remain reticent.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    That is too bad. I don't think they are sung in the French church in Canada at all. It would be a great project to start here as well.
  • StephenHelferty
    Posts: 4
    Thank you all for the advice. I am in Canada, too, and would love to see a movement towards singing the Mass rather than singing at Mass.
  • StephenHelferty
    Posts: 4
    No response from Henri at his new liturgical movement email address. Any other ideas?
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    Stephen,

    Have you been in touch with the musicians at the Basilica in Montreal? Contact Béatrice Baillargeon at the Basilica. She is the directrice and Pierre Grandmaison is the organiste titulaire.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    St. Benoit du Lac?
  • StephenHelferty
    Posts: 4
    Thanks. I'll see where these paths lead, and notify you if I make any headway.
  • Bruce E. Ford
    Posts: 429
    Adapting chant to French would be far more difficult than adapting it to English because French does not have real word accents.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Here is a list of sources in Canada to do with Gregorian Chant. There are quite a few in Quebec. You may want to email some and see if it leads anywhere. http://www.gregorian.ca/eng/resources.php

    Please post if you find something. I'm sure you are not the only one looking for such resources!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I started working on some adaptations (sample attached) while I was music director at the French National Church in SF. However, when we went to Paris and I attempted to show off my work to some of the local choir directors, they all looked at me like I was crazy. Everyone who is singing chant sings it in Latin, and they couldn't imagine why we'd want to sing it in French.
    Pain du ciel.pdf
    24K
    Thanked by 2canadash Jeffrey Quick
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Looking around the net I get the same impression: there are "liturgical songs" in French, but not French translations of the propers similar to our project "Simple English Propers".
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    Well, there are "translations" in the Gregorian missal available in France. And there are places where the propers are being sung in French. The Benedictines at SC are just one group. But as a whole, French Catholics do not have the aversion to Latin that Americans do. Even progressive places seem to be okay with it. ND de Paris, not the most traditional place in Paris, has Latin in many of the liturgies, not just the Gregorian mass

    Seems reasonable as French has been termed "Street" Latin by some linguists. Also, the space between French and Latin is not that large. They do not call it a "Romance" language for nothing.

    A plus,
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