Why no offertory antiphons in the missal?
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    In short:

    1.) Why are there no offertory antiphons provided in the missal?
    2.) What should you do for offertory chants?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The antiphons printed in the Missal were designed for recitation at Masses without singing. None was provided for the Offertory -- the priest has prayers to recite then anyway.

    The idea was that the antiphons for Masses with singing would be taken from the Graduale Romanum.

    For offertory chants, follow the options in the GIRM (applicable to your country).
  • Telling, isnt' it! That an Entrance and Communion for presumedly spoken masses are included in the missal. One would think (logically, it seems) that in addition to the RespPs and the Alleluya&Verse, there would have been an entrance (introit), offertory antiphon with psalm vv., and communion antiphon with ps vv in the Lectionary and the Missal to be sung at sung masses. This is what would make sense. But, our superiors are not noted for making sense. They give us the RespPs and the Alleluya in the Lectionary to be sung, but no other propers to go with them. indicating that at sung masses the powers couldn't care less if there were not also the introit, offertory, and communion. All we are given for propers is resp. psalm and alleluya/verse - a rather incomplete set of propers for a sung mass. The missing ones should also be in the Lectionary and what I am envisioning here as the Novus Ordo Graduale.

    What we desparately need is a COMPLETE Vatican II, Novus Ordo Graduale (In other words, a complete set of propers for every Sunday, Feast, Solemnity and occasion for years A, B. C. in one book: The Novus Ordo Graduale. All these texts should, as of old, be put in the missal and sacramentary so that their integral relationship to the mass cannot be overlooked.

    This, obviously, would include 1) Introit, 2) choice of resp ps in 3 yr cycle, or the gradual, 3) Alleluya and Verse 4) Offertory Antiphon with ps. vv., 5) Communion Antiphon with ps. vv. (Excepting the resp. ps. these texts are all translations from the Graduale Romanum

    In other words, all the propers: Int, Resp Ps OR Grad, Off, Comm would be together in one book and be expected to be sung at any sung mass. This should be in an approved English translation of the psalter. Editions could be 1) direct adaptations of the Gregorian music (a la Palmer-Burgess), 2) simplified chant, 3) psalm tone editions, Anglican Chant editions, 4) SATB motet style editions, 5) + ???, etc.

    I had spoken to Fr Columba about this need and I believe that he is working on it. Too many, though are actually setting those missal antiphons to music and muddying the waters. We don't need antiphons intended to be spoken at low masses to be set to music. We need the actual propers (ALL of them!) that were meant to be sung at sung masses.

    This Novus Ordo Graduale would be just like its Latin cousin except that, at the gradual one would have a choice between the gradual itself, or the resp. ps. A, B, or C.

    A variety of editions would manifest a variety of musical settings, as outlined above.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Where do I get the Ordo Cantus Missae? I want to be setting the correct texts when I compose for sung liturgies.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 967
    The Ordo Cantus Missae can be obtained through www.paxbook.com.

    It lists the chants in the following way, referring to the 1908 Graduale Romanum:

    image

    But concerning the example above, I can already see some differences between the chants prescribed by OCM, and the ones that eventually appeared in the 1974 Graduale Romanum...
    Thanked by 1Robert
  • Ambrosius
    Posts: 49
    I assume you know of the Processional (texts of all the Graduale Romanum propers, in English) at http://www.liturgyoffice.org.uk/Missal/Music/ProcessionalBook.pdf
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Thanks, but I'm looking for something which lists the texts for Feasts. The proper of the saints in that book are only for Solemnities.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 967
    I could compile a collection of all proper texts of the Roman Rite. See the attached file for an example.

    Would this be helpful?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Steven, that would be an awesome resource. If you were to do this, could you also put all the texts in something like an excel or Google docs spreadsheet? That would make it even more useful.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Oh, if only that were available with all the propers for the liturgical year, solemnities and feasts of the national calendars!
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    1.) Why are there no offertory antiphons provided in the missal?


    Page 387 of The Reform of the Liturgy: 1948-1975 by Annibale Bugnini might help. It says:

    A description of the parts of the Mass follows: introductory rite, liturgy of the Word, Eucharistic liturgy, concluding rite.

    To be noted in particular is the wide range of possibilities offered for singing. This allows both the full preservation of the traditional patrimony (Gregorian and polyphonic) and, at the same time, a genuine openness to new musical creations for new texts.

    Thus, for the entrance song, in addition to the texts in the Roman Gradual and the Graduale Simplex, it is possible to use other texts that are liturgically adapted to the season or feast and are counterparts of the old texts. They are to be approved by the episcopal conference. The same holds for the offertory and communion songs.

    All these songs accompany an action. It is therefore possible to allow a certain flexibility, especially with an eye on the heritage of popular song in the various countries and the various modern languages. This means in turn that the texts must be to some degree adaptable to new and different musical requirements.

    The document (referring to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal) prescribes how each 'sung' text is to be handled when the Mass is actually a Mass with singing and when the Mass is simply read. The entrance and communion antiphons, for example, are to be sung or read for their value in showing the meaning of the celebration and feast. The offertory antiphon, on the other hand, may be omitted if it is not sung, because it then loses its value as accompaniment to a procession and to the offertory rites; if it is simply read it would create a textual overload of this part of the celebration.
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    I'm really trying to understand this.

    Could it be that there are no offertory antiphons in the Roman Missal because the Roman Missal only contains antiphon texts that are to be sung or read?

    So, offertory antiphons might not be in the Roman Missal because they do not have to be read if they are not sung (reading the offertory antiphon would "create a textual overload of this part of the celebration"), whereas the "entrance and communion antiphons, for example, are to be sung or read"?

    (Excerpts are from the lengthy quotation above, from Bugnini, page 387).
  • But concerning the example above, I can already see some differences between the chants prescribed by OCM, and the ones that eventually appeared in the 1974 Graduale Romanum...

    Seriously? I did not know that ...
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    We don't need antiphons intended to be spoken at low masses to be set to music. We need the actual propers (ALL of them!) that were meant to be sung at sung masses.


    I am confused.

    Page 116 of The Reform of the Liturgy: 1948-1975 by Annibale Bugnini says, in regards to the changes in the Missal:

    "The basic distinction between the forms of celebration was no longer to depend on the presence or absence of singing but on the participation of the faithful. The only distinction now was to be between Mass with a congregation and Mass without a congregation."

    If the distinction between forms of Masses is "no longer to depend on the presence or absence of singing," what does "spoken at low masses" and "sung at sung masses" mean today?

    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    But concerning the example above, I can already see some differences between the chants prescribed by OCM, and the ones that eventually appeared in the 1974 Graduale Romanum...


    Perhaps this has to do with the fact that Solesmes, as a matter of principle, wished to exclude neo-Gregorian compositions if at all possible, while the OCM did not seem to be concerned with this.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    And regarding the Offertory, this reasoning seems like the winner to me...

    The entrance and communion antiphons, for example, are to be sung or read for their value in showing the meaning of the celebration and feast. The offertory antiphon, on the other hand, may be omitted if it is not sung, because it then loses its value as accompaniment to a procession and to the offertory rites; if it is simply read it would create a textual overload of this part of the celebration.


    The philosophy of the OF Missal seems to be not to duplicate things found in other books (i.e., Lectionary, Graduale, etc). Therefore, if the priest is not required (or even encouraged) to recite the Offertory antiphon if it is not sung, it does not belong in the Missal, since its only use would be when sung, and it can be found in the Graduale.

    It doesn't need to be in the Missal, so it's not. Pretty simple to me.
    Thanked by 1Ignoto
  • The problem is that, unfortunately a lot of priests believe that if it's not in the Missal, it doesn't belong in the Mass.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Why limit the discussion to just the offertory? All the propers in the new missal are different from what is foubd in the Graduale. I guess that they were put there for low masses to be spoken, but for heavens sake why couldnt the old established ones be spoken? There are several theads on this forum about this. Its beyond me.
  • The problem is.... a lot of priests believe that if it's not in the Missal, it doesn't belong in the Mass.

    Where are these priests?
    It seems that many think nothing at all of doing bad 'hymnody', songs, and chit-chat that not only are not in the missal but are of questionable orthodoxy and incredibly poor liturgical fitness.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    The whole concept of the OF is that of separating the books out, compared to the EF.

    What about the lectionary? Will they accept things from there?

    In the OF, everyone has a book. A book for the altar, a book for the ambo, and a book for the loft. it's quite clear actually, especially since the graduale romanum is mentioned directly in the missal (in the GIRM).
  • Yes but the book for the loft seems to get ignored. Good point, MJO.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Ignored because optional. There is no "...or some other Eucharistic Prayer approved by the conference of bishops" for the Missal, nor "At the place of the Gospel... 3. Another reading suitable to the season from some other book approved by someone or other" for the Lectionary.

    But GIRM 48...
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    All the propers in the new missal are different from what is foubd in the Graduale.


    This is a bit of hyperbole. I didn't do any quantitative research here, but my sense is (for Sundays and feasts) at MOST 25-40% are different. Quite a ways from "all the propers."
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    NO. IT'S ALL OF THEM. LITURGICAL CHAOS. SMOKE OF THE DEVIL ZOMG.
    Thanked by 2MarkThompson SkirpR