Choir Attack in Albuquerque, NM
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Is anyone familiar with this Catholic church where the stabbings occurred, or with the music program there?
    http://news.yahoo.com/identity-released-man-accused-nm-stabbings-222259819.html
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Everyone is a critic. I wonder if they were in a loft, which might be more secure. I have had street people wander in over the years, so I now sometimes lock the door to the choir loft.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,051
    LA Times story says "repeatedly stabbed the choir's lead singer." Uh, I wasn't aware that choirs had lead singers.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • francis
    Posts: 10,677
    hmmm.... i wear a bullet proof vest.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    No disrespect toward flutists, but that wouldn't have been my first guess as to who tried to save the "lead singer" in this attack. Guess I was wrong, according to the following article.

    And it appears that earlier reports might have been wrong, as well. Two of the victims appear to have been critically wounded:
    http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/2-stabbed-at-northwest-albuquerque-church/-/9153728/19928372/-/format/rsss_2.0/-/x5p5oa/-/index.html
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Occasionally I've played the organ in choir-lofts where strangers have wandered up without permission. Of course, nothing remotely as horrible as what has occurred in Albuquerque ever happened to me, but I continue to be amazed by how lax the security too often is with such lofts.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Our church was robbed in broad daylight between Masses on Easter Sunday several years ago. He employed stealth and knowledge of the unusual patterns of people coming and going to make his way into and out of the sacristy.

    At a church I previously served, a man came down one of the side aisles with a bucket of human filth and before anyone noticed him he rushed the altar and threw the contents of the bucket all over the altar and book of gospels. He was able to so this because the church was "gathered seating" style with multiple aisles and such a wide-open space that his movements went virtually unnoticed until it was too late. (This occurred the year after I'd left that position so I was not a witness to it but read about it on the parish website.)

    What if in the first instance the man had a gun? (We don't know that he didn't, but if he did, thankfully he didn't feel compelled to use it. What if the second man had a weapon instead of a bucket of feces and urine?

    Unfortunately, churches are "target rich" environments since in most states concealed carry is forbidden on church property. I know of one person who served an inner city parish in Detroit and violated the archdiocesan policy of no concealed carry because the area where he worked was very dangerous. He felt that it was better to explain yourself standing before 12 people than to be carried to your gravesite by 6.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I guess we are fortunate in having a number of police officers who attend our masses. There usually is at least one at most masses, sometimes in plain clothes, and a few who come in uniform if planning to go to work afterwards. Still, a few drunks have been physically carried out by ushers and officers. In our city a few years ago, someone did enter a Unitarian church one Sunday and shot several people. It can happen anywhere.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    The Albuquerque TV station did a hospital bed interview with the flutist who leapt into action in order to save people:
    http://www.koat.com/news/victim-in-church-stabbing-speaks/-/9154100/19931658/-/14tn6e7/-/index.html
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Unfortunately, churches are "target rich" environments since in most states concealed carry is forbidden on church property. I know of one person who served an inner city parish in Detroit and violated the archdiocesan policy of no concealed carry because the area where he worked was very dangerous. He felt that it was better to explain yourself standing before 12 people than to be carried to your gravesite by 6.


    I don't blame him one bit. It's always frustrating when parishes or dioceses do this. It makes many feel less safe (seriously, look at the last several shootings - all in supposed "gun free" zones. They sure worked well, huh?).
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I lock the loft when I play without the choir. During the choir mass, Jeffrey Quick is our first line of defense ...
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,051
    BWAHAHA! Jim's bigger than I and has professional experience...as do YOU sir! Fox radio news mentioned the "conductor" (the probable "lead singer") and the flutist, and I too was tempted to make a tasteless joke until I found out he was heroic. I am so sick of people desecrating our churches, and parodying the sacrament of Holy Orders (ECUSA and now UCC hosting priestess fauxdinations). The average mosque gets more respect...
  • Unfortunately, churches are "target rich" environments since in most states concealed carry is forbidden on church property. I know of one person who served an inner city parish in Detroit and violated the archdiocesan policy of no concealed carry because the area where he worked was very dangerous. He felt that it was better to explain yourself standing before 12 people than to be carried to your gravesite by 6.


    I second Ben's comment. I don't blame him either. I once worked at a church in a very bad area too, which thankfully did not classify as a gun free zone where I was at. Needless to say, after having had lunch with choir friends at a nearby restaurant just blocks from the church, I was followed to my car by a vagrant with something in his hand under some clothing he was holding, and when he approached me at my car, he was shocked to find a 45 pointed right at him. Needless to say he took off running. It appeared he had a knife under the clothing. The guy tending to hang around the church quite a bit. After that encounter, I never saw him again.
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick Ben
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Do we really want to have a discussion of 2nd amendment issues on this forum? I can see the relevance, but still.... do we want to go there?
  • Who is discussing 2nd amendment issues? No matter on what side anyone falls regarding issues, the fact remains that in these times, more and more incidents are occurring at churches. Just the other day, an Archbishop in Belgium was assaulted by a "peace and equality for all" group. A church nearby to where I worked, had robbers come barreling in with guns, robbing church goers at an early morning Mass a few years ago.
    Thanked by 2Ben marajoy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    When the choir isn't present, I am locked in the loft, ready to call the police if anything goes wrong. ContraBombarde is correct.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    While I don't recommend doing anything deliberately unsafe for no good reason, and while my heart breaks for the victims of any tragedy, I'm at the same time bothered by what I perceive (maybe inaccurately) as an inappropriate "us vs. them, batten-down-the-hatches" sense underlying commentary such as this. Like- (and again, this could be me projecting here)- it's somehow in particularly bad taste for violence to occur in a church, and that the world used to be a better place where these sorts of things didn't occur. ( Therefore, some societal/cultural/political shift has occurred, which I don't agree with, and which is contributing to these problems. If only my preferred religious/political/cultural group had more control over society. )

    It has always been dangerous to do God's work, as the life of God Himself attested while He was here. Frankly, I can think of no better place to die than in God's house, and I can think of no reason to die worthier of a Christian than simply being one.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I am of Adam's mind, what's good for S Thomas a Becket or Bp. Romero 'tis good for me. We must remain the most vulnerable of faiths, and in that unique "weakness as seen by the world," we remain strong of heart, intent and purpose. The stranger at the door we assume to be Christ until and unless s/he proves to be otherwise, and we must remain as if Christ diligent in our response to His way of responding. Do no harm.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    At the same time, the Catechism makes clear that those responsible for the lives of others (for example, fathers of families) are REQUIRED to protect them. In today's society, that means bringing a gun.

    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I will be sitting near Ben. :-) He's a CIA ninja, you know!
    Thanked by 1marajoy
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    I did not want my comments to be construed as a 2nd Amendment discussion. No "us versus them, batten down the hatches" mentality intended.

    I do however want to point out that there's a difference between being a martyr in witness of the Faith and foolishly leaving oneself open to the loss of life at the hands of an unprovoked aggressor. Everyone must decide for themselves to what extent their faith and the formation of their conscience allows them to defend themselves against such an unprovoked attack, quite possibly requiring deadly force, especially in an environment that common sense informs us is "target-rich".

    I don't view it as martyrdom to lose one's life in an unprovoked, life-threatening attack at the hands of a violent aggressor simply because it happens to occur in a church building.
  • @DavidAndrew you couldn't have put that any better! Spot on!
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,204
    Just so we're clear on Catholic Teaching and formation of conscience in the matter, here are the applicable sections of the CCC:

    Legitimate defense

    2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66

    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    DA - I agree with you. I would not presume to judge the actions, or especially the intentions, of anyone working to make churches safer or to defend against attack.

    When I think, for example, of the Crusades, or Joan of Arc, or even the Israelites of the Old Testament - it makes it very difficult for me, an extreme pacifist, to justify any claim that using deadly force is always wrong, even though that is my gut-feeling on the matter. I have, personally, come to the conclusion that I can only make a judgement such as that in reference to myself (wherein it is not a judgement, but a discernment) - it is wrong FOR ME to use deadly force, even for self-defense, even in defense of others.

    Perhaps I should sit near Ben as well.

    (Side note, not that my opinion on the issue is of any consequence: I strongly support the Second Amendment, regardless of the fact that I am strongly opposed to my own exercising of that right.)
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    Perhaps I should sit near Ben as well.


    Maybe if everyone sat near Ben, the world would be a better place. Or at least people would think twice before defying the GIRM! :)
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Ha! I never knew having an AR-15 slung over your back can make you so popular... (Just joking, of course...)