Organist cassock and surplice
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Hi everyone,

    I'm looking into purchasing a few cassocks one in green, red and purple. I would be the only music minister (I'm the music director) who would wear a robe. Even though there are 5 in the choir they don't wear robes usually. I found a blue cassock in the choir closet and it fits me. When during the church year is it appropriate to wear the blue cassock?? I own a black organist roman cassock. I'm thinking the green one for ordinary time, red for Pentecost-palm Sunday-good Friday etc. Purple for lent and advent. I'm just confused as when I should wear the blue colored cassock.

    Would it look weird if I'm the only one who would wear a robe?? Ii feel like since I'm part of the liturgy as are lectors altar servicers I should wear a robe instead of just street clothes. thoughts from fellow music directors and organists are welcome!!

    Thanks!!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    1. it would be weird for you to be the only one in a robe. Everyone or no one.
    2. Black only. Chausibles change color with the season. Cassocks do not. Ever.

    Ever.

    I mean it. Ever.
    Thanked by 4jward Mark Husey CHGiffen Cantus67
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    Don't some places use red? Anglicans (and Anglican-use Catholics)?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,939
    Another advantage to being in a choir/organ loft in the back. No one below even sees you, unless they see your back as they exit.
    Thanked by 1IanW
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    You are quite correct in thinking that you should, like lectors, cantors, and others, wear choir habit. (Your choir should, as well.) If you are wearing a cassock (which is commendable and proper) you should also wear a surplice over it.

    As for the colours: Adam is spot on.
    Black is the correct tincture at all times. Cassocks do not ever change colours with the seasons or for any other reason.

    There are some places at which acolytes wear red.
    There are some special places (mostly Anglican) in which choirs wear red, blue or purple (such as at a cathedral), but otherwise black is the only colour that you should consider. ((Green is unheard of... except maybe at some weird sectarian place.))

    Nor should it matter whether one is 'in choir' or in a west gallery. Ministers of the liturgy (which include choirmasters, organists, and choirs) wear appropriate habit wherever they are located.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Mark Husey CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    >>Don't some places use red? Anglicans (and Anglican-use Catholics)?

    Yes. But they don't change from one to the other.
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    I understand that black is the only color but isn't it liturgically correct to wear the correct color as the pastor wears? I'm trying to get the choir back into their red robes. Even if there are only 5 in robes.

    I was looking forward to wearing red on palm Sunday and on good Friday instead of black. I will always wear a white surplice over a cassock.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    You can wear any color the pastor wears, as long as it's black.
    Thanked by 6Ally Liam Mark Husey CHGiffen Cantus67 dmandalak
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Btw, I might have used the wrong term! They are actually regular color choir robes not organist cassocks. Would that make a difference and still I can wear them if they aren't traditional cassocks?

    I own a black organist cassock. But was looking for a few different colors to match with liturgical colors!
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Why would cm almy offer colored cassocks if an organist should only wear black. I've seen a choir wear blue robes and the director and organist (2 different) people wear blue cassocks, not black! Maybe they are just wearing blue robes and a white surplice?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Why would cm almy offer colored cassocks if an organist should only wear black


    The same reason the gas station sells hot dogs with cheeze-flavored goo embedded into the meat. People buy stuff that they shouldn't ALL THE TIME, and there's money to be made.

    Btw, I might have used the wrong term! They are actually regular color choir robes not organist cassocks. Would that make a difference and still I can wear them if they aren't traditional cassocks?


    Do you work at a Baptist church? Unless you do, do not wear whatever it is you are describing.

    But was looking for a few different colors to match with liturgical colors!


    image
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Is it wrong to wear a cassock and surplice during mass? I was reading online and it seems that C&S is Anglican? I play for catholic church, is that inappropriate?

    Something has sparked in me recently to wear a C&S lately. I just don't want to look odd for wearing one weekly. What are other peoples thought??

  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Haha Adam! I get it!! :-)
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    Lots of places sell things you probably shouldn't buy :)

    I agree with above - black.

    If you want to wear liturgical colors, then just wear nice street clothes (like a shirt and tie) in liturgical colors. I do that all the time, and so does my choir outside of Ordinary Time. Well I don't wear a tie (maybe a scarf), but you get my meaning.

    I was thinking that organ shoes in the different liturgical colors would be awesome...and I would use those cool gold ones on Christmas and Easter :)
    Thanked by 4irishtenor marajoy Gavin CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    The priest doesn't change the color of his cassock to match the liturgical colors. His cassock is "choir dress", so that's the example to follow.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Gavin CHGiffen
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Is it wrong to wear a cassock and surplice during mass? I was reading online and it seems that C&S is Anglican? I play for catholic church, is that inappropriate?

    Something has sparked in me recently to wear a C&S lately. I just don't want to look odd for wearing one weekly. What are other peoples thought??
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,163
    It surely is not traditional for a mixed liturgical choir to wear sacred vestments, which are (male) dress originally reserved to clerics.
    Thanked by 4ryand irishtenor Ally CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    It's not unusual for boy choirs to wear cassock and surplice, or for men's chant scholas in traditional-Mass communities to wear it.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Women should not be wearing cassocks. Period. Unless your men will be wearing frilly dresses, that is...
    Thanked by 2Ally CHGiffen
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Ben, is it okay for organists to wear cassocks each week or is that to much and should only be reserved for special occasions??
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    As long as the organist is male, it's really a question of taste, more than anything else.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    The traditional colours for server's cassocks are black and red (an SRC decision once upon a time); my home parish still does so, black for Advent, Lent and funerals, red for the rest of the year. There was a time in the 20th century (even before Vatican II), when cassocks in liturgical colours were en vogue and in fact a big part of churches in my home town is wearing liturgical colours (nobody except the priest is wearing albs here). However the traditional colours for a cassock are black and red.

    If you wear choir gowns (such as a verger's gown), I think they should have one colour for the whole year. But that is my private opinion.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    So if you have a mixed voices choir. are choir robes appropriate or should it be men in cassock, women in black dresses?

    Not trying to muddy the issue, simply trying to learn here.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I presume that you are in the front? I would only wear choir dress/robes if I were actually 'in choir' or during a procession. If you're in the loft its kinda pointless since most often people can't be seen, and it's hot up there!. Some might also say that a mixed choir in a loft, or even a mixed choir in the nave, is not technically a true liturgical choir, and therefore should not be vested, but that's another can of worms.
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,960
    Well, I've certainly seen female Catholic organists in organist C&S for many years, and it's not forbidden (even Fr Z concedes that). It's a fiction in any event for lay people, male or female, to be wearing them (the fact that a lay-man could become a cleric doesn't make him any more a cleric than a lay-woman at that point in time). So, while we're free to be as adamantine as we wish here, in real life, I would caution against taking such a line in the broad public sphere unless one is fully willing to reap the consequences of seeming ridiculous to them....
    Thanked by 2Gavin ParleyDee
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    While not forbidden, STTL discourages cassock and surplice since it is clerical attire. The alb or choir robe is the appropriate vesture for lay music ministers.
    Thanked by 4Gavin Liam Earl_Grey CHGiffen
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    STTL makes me sad. I applied for my position (a parish church) because the choir vested in cassock and surplice, and they happen to be purple, which is a stretch. So sue me. Our cathedral invested in red cassocks and white surplices for their choir of boys and girls, so that gave me the green light to buy purple cassocks for our choir of boys and girls. If we ever went to wearing white albs or street clothes, I'd likely go work at Burger King.

    Down deep inside, I'm really rather shallow.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    Similar forum topic last year:

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6144/choir-gowns/p1
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Well, that's just is silly - Cassock and surplice is choir dress, an alb is part of the sacred vestments for celebrating Mass, etc.. According to tradition the choir wore C&S, and the servers wore [aparalled] albs and amices. If they shouldn't wear C&S they sure as anything shouldn't wear albs; I think it's far, far worse to have lay-people wearing albs than cassocks when 'in choir'. And those gowns (usually worn by Judges) are for the Verger, not the choir. We might as well have the Priest wearing the Verger's gown, the Verger wearing Choir Dress, and the Choir in Chasubles!

    I suppose SttL doesn't like the cantors to wear Copes, either?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    Well, it's correct to some extent: the old concept of "choir" was a group of clerics in the sanctuary, just as the old concept of "acolyte" was an ordained acolyte. Now we have kids wearing cassock and surplice while serving; and we have lay singers wearing C&S, and wearing it even outside the sanctuary.

    Shouldn't the question be cassock-and-cotta for organists?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,939
    Our loft is so hot, we have all threatened to wear nothing one Sunday in protest. We couldn't stand any kind of choir dress in such temperatures.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,369
    Salieri -
    '...reap the consequences of seeming ridiculous to them.'

    I might query just who seems ridiculous to whom?!
    Choirs wear choir habit because of their role in the liturgy.
    It is well-observed above that the current sociological realities are not those that determined codes of vesture in past times. Many choirs vest themselves in monks robes complete with cowls, or loose fitting robes with a scapular over them, yet no one is getting bent out of shape over disgustingly lowly laypersons wearing religious habit. It is legitimate to propose that C&S are choir habit and therefore are appropriate for modern choirs, whether or not they, like choirs of past time happen to be ordained. One has to have a pretty low concept of music and the role of choirs to think that choir habit is ever inappropriate... no matter where they are placed or no matter the temperature. I would never think of fulfilling my liturgical duties without putting on my 'God clothes'. Those who don't might ponder the consequences of seeming ridiculous. (One is reminded of the parable of the wedding guest who made his appearance without a wedding garment.)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ParleyDee
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,960
    MJO

    I am talking about asserting that female organists must not wear C&S.
  • Pedro d'Aquino
    Posts: 128
    Laymen who serve at the altar or in the choir are supplying for clerics, even if they do not hold the clerical state. Clerical garb should be reserved for clerics, for those preparing to be clerics and for those who, faute de mieux, take the place of clerics.

    And since Fr Z was mentioned, here's what he said:
    While I don’t think there is any legislation that forbids the use of the cassock and surplice by women, it is clearly clerical garb. In my opinion it is wrong for females to use clerical garb at any time and for any reason. [emphasis original]
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    operative phrase from Fr. Z:

    In my opinion


    Thanked by 3Liam Gavin HeitorCaballero
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,960
    Adam

    Bing, Bing, Bing.

    Pedro

    You are free to be adamant about this. I said so earlier. If you want to be adamant about it with the general Catholic public, be prepared for giggles or people looking at you strangely. You may not care about that, and more power to you. But people who are not so prepared need to be cautioned (not that their opinion is forbidden, just that's it's not necessarily as persuasive as they imagine). Laics are no less laics when they are pretending to be clerics; once we're in that place, we are in a fictional context, and people's subjective take becomes much less persuadable. Finally, music ministers are no longer supplying FOR clerics in the OF, so that bone no longer supports that corset of reasoning in the way it once did, at least in the OF.
    Thanked by 1ParleyDee
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    What is worse:

    Women in choir in cassocks?

    Lay women and men distributing Communion in inappropriate garb?

    Maybe STTL banned cassocks to distract us from the important issues.
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Perhaps I'm just to traddy ... well, off to don my cassock and surplice for the 4:00 anticipated Mass ...
    Thanked by 1MHI
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    What IS the proper cassock color for a Mass that is not on the day that it is...and celebrated even before dusk appears? Could there not be a Monday morning postponed Sunday Mass to make satisfying the Sunday obligation even more easy?

    Who votes for anticipated Thursday abstinence to permit having steak for supper on Friday? Or Fish on Saturday? you could attend Sunday Mass Saturday at 4 and then hit Long John Silver's for Fish afterwards. Condense being Catholic each week into to hours on Saturday night!
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,163
    Liam, that metaphor was worth the whole discussion.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,960
    Andrew

    "Zips up the back, and no bone!"
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Let's separate out the issues, because they are separate...

    Women in choir wearing cassocks:
    -certainly weird in the EF, maybe even wrong
    -certainly not wrong, though POSSIBLY problematic (according to some opinions) in the OF
    -not just OK, but pretty much expected in the Anglican Use

    Organist wearing a cassock when the choir is not:
    -weird

    Color of cassock:
    -black

    Colors of cassock when not black:
    -red (sometimes)
    -blue (less so)
    -purple (what?)
    -green: never. I mean it.

    Changing color of cassock to match the liturgical season:
    -no

    Wearing a graduation gown or a judge's robe in the choir:
    -only if you're Baptist

    Wearing an alb in the choir:
    -only if you have really bad taste

    Spending too much time thinking about what we are wearing for choir:
    -not good
    Thanked by 5Gavin ParleyDee M. Jackson Osborn bkenney27 ServiamScores
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    Around here the Anglican Use community uses academic garb (foo-- wish I'd actually bought the gown and hood for my Sc.M.!)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,155
    Wow, richard, I could use my Ph.D. gown there!!
  • WGS
    Posts: 298
    I know this is off the original subject, but the last couple of comments leads me to...
    My understanding of the Anglican/Episcopal tradition has been that the academic hood is appropriate for singing the office - matins, evensong - and not for the Eucharist. On such office occasions, I have worn my hood with its yellow and white papal colors proudly displayed.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    WGS - I have observed (seen) that custom as well, but have never observed (participated in) it myself.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,960
    Adam

    It made sense when those academic robes were from institutions that were seminaries for the Church, in essence. With the rise of secular colleges and universities, I am not sure the tradition travels as well.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Thank you Adam.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    These days in most parishes it would be black cassocks. The red/purple cassock is found primarily in Cathedral Churches where the cassock matches the colour that of the Bishop. You will note that often the diocesan Master of Ceremonies will wear this coloured cassock when assisting the Bishop at mass.

    Black academic robes are not entirely inappropriate. They have their origins as part of the Benedictine religious habit, however I can see that they are more appropriate in some places than others. My college choir wears them, for example.
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    Turns out we're in good company with vesting our choir in purple cassocks/white surplices: the Basilica of Saint Nicholas in Amsterdam. http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1326885
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    A nice example of a choir in the traditional choir stalls arrangement, and a good choir. But are you sure the purple cassocks are not due to its status as papal Basilica? I searched a bit and on all pictures except one (where they were vested in red cassocks) they wore violet cassocks. But I'll drop an e-mail to the choir director (I'd like to know which Mass they sang) to find out on the cassock.
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