Choral sound from the balcony
  • Hi everyone,

    I want to your comments on my following thoughts and ideas. On this past Sunday, I had the choir sing from the loft for the first time in 15 years. I have two small little two portable size speakers and a decent microphone set up in the loft. I did have the speakers down on the floor of the balcony facing outward over the congregation. One possible solution is to put the speakers on the railing so they are up a tad higher. Right after the Entrance hymn the "sound man" of the parish came up and said nothing can be heard at all from the choir! So I turned the speakers up a little bit. By the way, this sound also feels the choir should use monitors when singing! (never heard of that before!) it's a church choir not a rock band!!

    So my question to fellow music directors and sound tech guys:
    This man wants the choir to have mics and voices sent thru the house system even when singing from the loft. I believe that the sound should come from the back and not sent thru the house. What are your thoughts? I strongly believe having voices go thru the house defeats the purpose of it coming from the loft!

    One of the choir members asked some random parishioners feed back and here's what their comments were.they said they could hear but not at all clearly.  They said they heard it much clearer and stonger in the front.  And they missed seeing us. Another woman said she didn't at all care for the weak vocal sound.  she said she couldn't hear us well at all. Alright so clearly the speaker system needs modification of some sort.

    What are people's thoughts on this situation?

    The whole missed seeing the choir thing is due to the choir singing on the floor. I did hear from a good number people they did not miss the distraction of the choir getting up and moving around etc etc. Also down on the floor the mics are sent thru the house system.

    Has anyone ever dealt with a similar situation, what did you do to make it a better solution??

    Thanks for your feedback!
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I've not dealt with a similar situation in Church, thankfully, but I do appreciate the concerns.

    Having no venue on campus large enough for the expected audience, my students performed our Christmas concert at a local charter school in the auditorium, which is reasonably well-designed, acoustically speaking. They still had microphones up from their concert the evening before, and told me that it was essential that we use them. I was skeptical, so I tried it without - walked all over the hall while the choirs sang. It was fainter to be sure, but it was honest, and the balance between singers was very good. (Actually, it wasn't all that good, but it was honest.)

    This honesty is important to me as a conductor in a performance situation, because in the course of my conducting - the gestures I make to different sections, the volumes I try to evoke from my singers - I need to know that what I'm hearing standing in front of them is as close as possible to what the audience is hearing - even if that's a little or even somewhat significantly quieter in volume. Unless I have someone running sound who has tons of classical music experience (or at least whose sound work with classical music I've heard before), I can't really trust that person to make sure that the sound is the same or better than what I'm hearing.

    While most sound people seem desperate to want to use equipment to make it better, the problem is most them don't know what better is. Better might be adjusting for a room that emphasizes the high-end or low-end. Better might be clearer diction (that is still together without individuals sticking out). Better is not necessarily louder. And louder brings side effects. But attend any popular music concert, or even go to a wedding reception, or watch American Idol, and you'll see what shapes and influences these techs and the audiences (or congregations) which hear our music.

    So, I took a stand and went without the mics to my hosts' disbelief. Some people in the auditence told me they thought the choirs were too soft, but it was nobody whose taste I had any reason to trust. I knew that what I was hearing was basically what they were hearing, even if it was softer.

    Choral music (in or outside of church) - with the exception of some vocal jazz - does not need amplification and should not be amplified except under the most specific circumstances. And even then only in the hands of professionals who really know what it's supposed to sound like.

    As for people missing seeing you, that's a whole other issue I'll let someone else tackle.
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    In defense of monitors, I've found them useful when the back row of singers can't hear the front row. Or when they can't hear the accompaniment.

    But a lot of that is due to singers not knowing WHAT the balance should sound like.

    I would keep trying to find a way to use minimal amplification. This might just be normal growing pains. And maybe your "sound guy" can be some help, if you can agree on what the goal is.
  • Congratulations on moving your choir to the loft. I recommend:

    1) No mikes: not for the choir, not for the cantor, and not for the priest, when he sings.

    2) Bring the cantor up to the loft. Involve the choir in the verses for the responsorial psalm.

    3) The organ must support the singing, not overpower it.

    4) Turn off the organ for some chant, such as the Introit and Communio.

    5) Rehearse in the loft. Clear out any clutter, that might baffle the sound: extra chairs, piles of books, coatracks. Close the swell box, if the louvers form part of the acoustic shell. Set up a multi-verse hymn at rehearsal, and a different position for each verse: single line in the front of the loft, single line midway, single line in back, double line close ranked, double line spaced, etc. Start the choir, then walk downstairs to the pews. Find out what position gives the best volume, blend, and clarity.

    6) Use your regular column in the bulletin to explain your goals: a better sound, supporting congregational participation, removing a distraction.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Does the building work in your favor or against you? Is there a lot of sound-absorbing material downstairs (I mean: besides the people in the pews)?
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • I wholeheartedly support your choir's move to the choirloft. Don't "cave-in" to the mike
    use & the "sound guy." These are the very people who ruined the acoustic in many a fine church. They tried to go for a recording studio (absolutely no ambience) environment, so
    that the "sound guy" could mix & balance, thereby "improving the sound." The result was
    to create worship spaces where the people could not participate, but rather became the "audience" listening to the "band" on the "stage." When I came to Saint Edward, we moved the cantors to choirloft with the organ & choir. We never "mike" the singers; and two weeks ago, old carpeting was ripped-up from the sanctuary floor and hardwood was
    laid. I could hear a great difference, not only in the fine natural chanting of the celebrant, but also the way the sanctuary space added ambience to the singing of the congregation! The first time I heard our school children singing the "Our Father" and the
    added resonance, I was thrilled. Experiment with vocal projection and choral placement.
    You'll soon experience a much more prayerful choral sound. All the Best to you!
  • Thank You both for your input and your suggestions. One issue that we(choir) face is there are only 6 singers on an average Sunday at best. So amplification is needed somehow. I will say that i had the speakers lower on the ground but still facing the congregation. One thing I will try next time is to put the speakers on the railing and see what happens.

    Another issue is that the loft is actually two balconies higher then the congregation. There is the congregation on the floor a first balcony and then the pipe organ in the loft on the second balcony. So that may play around with sound acoustic issues?

    The church is an old French church from the mid 19th century, so I would have to say that the building works in our favorite but I'm not 100% sure on that answer. There is no carpet in the church either.

    Any other suggestions??
  • When it comes to using mics in church or choir in general less is more. Don't use any amplification if at all possible. Unless you are using a real high-end PA system with good overhead choir mics it will only make the choir sound worse--louder, perhaps but not natural.

    Could a trained classical singer fill the room without a mic? If a soloist can, then so can a choir of only 6 people. They may need more vocal training, but that can be challenging with a volunteer choir. That being said, there are some spaces where the acoustics work against you so much that some amplification is necessary. Are you using an overhead condenser choir mic or a dynamic, hand-held style? The latter will never work for choral singing (except in the case of jazz/pop choirs where each singing has their own mic). Also, consider whether it is truly a volume issue or a clarity issue. If the acoustics are decent or better (lots of hard surfaces for sound to reflect) then it is most likely a clarity issue--competing with noisy children or cell phones etc.

    As for running through the house system vs a separate rear PA that depends on a lot of factors too. If the house system is superior in quality and the micing of the choir is subtle that is probably your best bet. But it depends on speaker placement etc. Our church has one main speaker in the ceiling in the front, and while the choir sings from the back, the sound all mixes up near the ceiling. We also have a large balcony that sticks out halfway over the main floor. Sound doesn't wrap around corners well. If the balcony didn't stick out so far I would not mic the choir at all.

    If you have lots of speakers along the walls on the main floor etc., then I would only use that for spoken word and have a separate system near the choir (providing it makes them sound good) so the sound can be as natural as possible (which ideally would be not amplified at all).
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • I agree with Earl_Grey that this is more an issue of clarity than volume. I also agree that the singers may need more training to be viable in the large space. Did you use mikes when you were in the front of the church? I come from a more pedagogical background vocally, but even in a dead space voices should not need to be amplified to be heard if they are trained properly. I would stick to your guns and use no amplification; two things need to happen: 1.) the choir needs to get used to and understand how to sing so that they can fill the space. 2.) the congregation needs to learn to listen more attentively and tune their ears to hearing the choir without amplification. Both things take time, but they will have big payoffs in the long run.
  • It is not that difficult to fill a church with only one voice. Something that has helped me immensely was a tip on the internet: Imagine you breath into your lower back; that'll ensure the right position, although it sounds anatomical nonsense. I learned it from a German translation of this article.
  • I know the building; it's possible to fill it with only 6 voices, but you'll have to be careful with how you accompany it. If you're looking for 4-part hymn singing with the choir and congregation, they simply won't be heard.

    I'd look into as much a cappella choir literature as you can find.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Sending the sound through the PA system of the church approximates Muzak. There is a purpose in the sound coming from its point of origin, rather than from a kind of surround-sound. The action of the choir, as the action of the priest, is a liturgical action, the act of a worshipper or worshippers, each in its proper location. The sound should identify that location. This is as crucial, perhaps more so, for the priest than for the choir. So the priest should not be using a microphone--solution: he should sing his parts, then he will be heard.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    True! Put a mic in the ambo maybe, but even then, if you retain the traditional elevated ambo, that won't be a problem.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Put an elevated ambo in a building with seating for 2000, with carpet on the walls and big fluffy chairs for the congregation and you're still going to have all sorts of issues.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo CharlesW
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Uh, nobody's mentioned that lofts/galleries/balconies extant or in the future aren't created equal. But new ones have to conform to safety and building codes that weren't in force prior to the 50's. Besides the 1923 Wurlitzer from Hollywood up in ours, there's a spiral stairwell to it, only three feet of railing between gravity and a teetering senior or toddler, and according to the fire marshall, it's already a.....
    Just paying attention to the realities.
    Thanked by 2ParleyDee Liam
  • Good point. That's why while acoustic sound is ideal but not possible in every situation.
    Thanked by 1ParleyDee
  • At the music meeting (Sunday night) it was discussed about my recent decision to have the choir sing from the loft for the first time in 15 years. While knowing there were mic issues, I was told by two choir members of their feeling of "disconnection" from the mass being so far up. After voicing my option with reason for doing that, the idea was set up to sometimes use the loft and sometimes sing from the floor. I'm just feeling a disconnection from their reasons as to why they don't want to sing from the loft! I'm looking for some good church GIRM documents that say the choir SHOULD always sing from the loft.

    With having the choir on the floor there is a big disconnection and horrible delay (for me) from hearing their voice with the organ in the loft. It was so nice to have them in the loft and not have to worry about tempo dragging from them on the floor. We were actually all together from singing in the loft.

    Looking for thoughts from follower music directors as where to go from here and convince the choir of the positive reasons for always singing from the loft. Even though they want to be on the floor based on the discussion last night. A couple other reason for wanting to sing on the floor is "closeness to family and being able receive communion" one mor reason as to not singing from the loft was "chatter" while not singing in the loft and not a feel of reverence. But there is more reverence on the floor?

    One choir member brought in an article that pretty much was all negative reasons for singing from the loft! I will attach the link later this morning for all to see and leave comments on!

    I'm just completely stuck as to where to go now!
  • Here is the article PDF: http://archphila.org/evangelization/worship/music/forms/LocationofChoirandMusicalInstruments.pdf

    Maybe my use of the word negative is to harsh but when reading the article and points made (think of it when reading from singing on the floor) and the article just seems to "favor" those points. Though I just skimmed through the first couple pages during the meeting last night. Honestly didn't read the whole entire article yet.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Some of the factors discussed in the article from Philly weigh in your favor:

    Putting the choir in the loft, behind the pews of the congregation, is a way to show that they are associated with the congregation; from there they face the altar as members of the congregation. Placing them in the sanctuary would not have this effect.

    Placing the choir in the loft (near the organ console and the director) makes it easier for the choir to fulfill its liturgical function.

    ---

    The "Commentary on the GIRM..." by Foley, Mitchell, and Pierce, while only a statement of opinion, does have an item in your favor: "The resonance of the church building should be considered when deciding the best location for choirs and musicians...."

    ---
    One point in the document is in error: page 3 says that the psalmist should be located at the ambo or elsewhere in the sanctuary; but the documents allow for any other suitable location, which may include your choir loft.

  • I think the primary reason that should be cited is that music ministry is able to be more together. Without a conductor it is nearly impossible to have a choir sign at the proper tempo with the organ due to sound delay. I am a professional singer and the only reason I can do it is because I tell the organist to follow me and that I will maintain the tempo myself. Ultimately, this aspect of music ministry is not a democracy.