HELP! A Problem and About Graduate School...
  • Praised be Jesus Christ!
    Hello all! I'm new here and am looking for some advice. Please help! :)

    In bullet-point fashion:

    *I've been an organist (outside of my childhood parish) for ten/eleven years. I've been a music director, choir director and one of the accompanists for a Catholic parish in the south central US for around a year-and-a-half. I was a part of a terrific choral experience (a small amount of chant, polyphony, British anthems, great hymnody, orchestral Masses, motets, etc... from my youth - 1992 on. I stayed in that choir beyond grade school and left in 2007.
    *I graduated in the early 2000's with a degree in Vocal Music Education.
    *I have a loving wife and three young children.
    *This year has not gone well. I'm much more into chant, polyphony and sacred hymnody than the parish is, despite the original yearnings from the pastor and associate pastor for someone like me and what I can offer. (That's what he told me he wanted when he interviewed and hired me). It has been filled with their listening to certain loud people's complaints, which, in turn, puts me into a more and more restrictive box. The former interim-director is now, in effect, my boss. I must clear everything with her and meet with her (and the associate pastor) at least twice a month. Unlike me, she has no theology or music background, just years of playing the piano. She has no sense of the enormity of repertoire that's out there, tends to be paranoid, will say one thing to me in person and then will tell the priests something completely different if she hears the priests sound like they might go in a different direction, will bcc the priests something she sends me, not allowing me a chance to correct what she might write, and she believes that anytime a hymn hits a "high" D, (an octave above mid. C) that it must be transposed because "there's no way a congregation could ever sing that". She emails me often, harassing me at least once-a-week about my job performance. I am forced to do David Haas, Marty Haugen, and other tired folk-style music I just, at this point in my life, am not interested in, and, frankly, am bored with. We've sung the same barely-tolerable Mass Ordinary since last Easter, because "the people know it".
    *I used to see music as an integral part of my love of God and a means to building a relationship with Him and now find myself getting more and more frustrated and mentally "checking out".
    SO.........
    What would you do? I'm interested in going on to get some advanced schooling, but in what and where? I can't take much more of this "answer to the parish council or the woman you replaced (kind of)" kind of Catholicism and liturgy. My love is the Mass, either the TLM or the Novus Ordo done as it should and could. While my pedal technique is not the best, I think I'm a fairly capable organist who can improvise well. I also know my repertoire and know how to prepare and direct children's choirs.
    My confidence has been shaken, my faith frustrated (but NOT lost), my zeal severely weakened. I'm seriously considering just trying to get a job at the local grocery store so that I can be able to come home and have something to talk about besides work, as my wife and children deserve better. But I would love other suggestions...
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Not sure what to suggest, other than to judge by the background given here, a musically congenial workplace (or a workplace congenial in some other respect, such as the local grocery store) would seem more desirable for you than further schooling. Those who resent what you have to offer in musical terms might find your possession of further schooling to be even more objectionable in their view.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Decide where you might like to go to school, and start looking for music jobs listed in the area. Talk to department heads and teachers at that school, since they are often good sources for job leads. AGO chapters can be helpful, too. Sad to say, you may be happier avoiding the Catholic Church unless you are lucky enough to find a parish that is serious about good sacred music.

    Former directors. That's a difficult one. I am of the opinion that when a director retires, he or she should leave immediately. If not voluntarily, then a good application of tar and feathers would be appropriate. I have seen too many problems in too many churches created by "retired" musicians who stay and meddle.
  • The pastor needs to put a stop to this nonsense immediately or he will never have a moments peace from his congregation about anything. However, this does not solve your problem. Do you have charge of a children's choir? If there is not a children's choir you might start one with the advertised intent of teaching them how to sing, you have a degree in vocal music. Here is the best place to start I would think. If you get a response then teach them, really teach them how to sing in unison and for special feasts teach them to sing an Ave Maria chant. Even the most opinionated parishioners are usually willing to listen to the children sing chant especially if it has something to do with the Blessed Mother. Do you have homeschoolers in your parish? They are often interested in having their children learn chant and Latin.
    Thanked by 1elaine60
  • Get a job at a protestant church where you will be respected, earn a decent salary,
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood R J Stove
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    These meddlers make everything difficult. This is a HUGE problem in the ROTR. Pastors have the right idea, they know the sound that they want, they hire someone who can get them there--and then some whiners in the pew complain. Then all heck breaks loose. It is confusing and a spiritual trial, just as you've described it, and it completely ruins not only the fun of work, but the fun of taking time off. You end up feeling like you work all the time, because even when you're not working, you're trying to solve the insoluble problems at work.

    If I were you I would have a serious talk with the pastor. Lay out your qualifications, remind him of why you were hired, and tell him what you have accomplished so far. Get him to acknowledge your accomplishments. Then say that you would like the lines of authority to be clarified, and that you would like to report directly to him. Make sure you say something genuinely nice about the people who are making your life miserable--they must have some decent qualities, no matter how hidden--but remind him that you were hired to report to him. Don't let him say no, or he's too busy, or he doesn't know as much about music as the associate. Don't let him weasel out of direct supervision of your work. If you have a contract or a work agreement that says you report directly to him, mention it. As a very last effort, say that you would like to report directly to him with no interference for a year (but be willing to accept six months), so that you can build up the program you discussed in your interview.

    That's the aggressive-aggressive way to handle it.

    The passive-aggressive way, which can unfortunately sometimes be better (if the pastor is conflict-averse, which is how situations like this usually happen in the first place), is simply not to meet with the associate and former interim director. What the heck are they doing meddling in your program? Just don't take the meetings. Do what you do without their input. Treat them politely when you see them but don't discuss your work with them. Smile and change the subject. Talk about music but do not answer them if they ask what you are working on. Send completely professional and non-emotional emails to your direct supervisor (pastor) once a week, just a brief cheerful update on the progress of the choirs. Tell him in at least some of these emails the names of particular parishioners who have complimented your work. Copy the emails to the associate if you really feel it was clear to you from the beginning that he supervises you as well, but not otherwise.

    In any case, do not do what that interim whoosit tells you to do. Just ignore her advice. Be polite but totally blow her off, and the same with the associate if you can get away with it. (That depends on whether he was introduced as your co- supervisor at the beginning of your employment.)

    I guess what I'm basically saying is that you're going to have to stand up for your program here, and defend it (without seeming argumentative) for everyone's sake. Insist that people treat you like a professional by refusing to let them treat you otherwise. Ridiculous, isn't it, that people make this necessary. There must be a special, very low, circle of purgatory for people who get their jollies pushing pastors around and making their subordinates miserable.

  • I second Kathy's advice! Being that your already looking to possibly do other things such as working in retail to avoid the headaches, why not take the chance of standing your ground in a very polite and professional manner. The former director has nothing to say about your program. You were brought in for a reason, it was obvious that a change of direction was needed, and the pastor saw that when you were hired. He is only cowarding down to the loud mouths. Try to get others to support you in a very professional manner, and let them see the progress of your works. If it fails, you at least saw the writing on the wall from a distance, and have hopefully taken preparations for that.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    Having to support a family certainly complicates things. It wouldn't hurt to put out some resumes and try to find a parish that is serious about good music. Now that may be easier said than done. I have the same struggle. And then there are those parishioners who actually do appreciate your efforts. Fight or flight? It's never an easy decision.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Quit and work at a protestant church.
  • Thanks, all!

    A few clarifications:

    @ all: Besides just complaining, which does seem fair (I know there are two sides to every story, but honestly, my job was night and day from when the parish council was positive towards my work to cool towards it - I could name a date) I am wondering:

    1.) Are there Catholic churches out there that WANT and REQUIRE someone with the knowledge and offerings I bring to the table?
    2.) Is there a good college/university that offers an advanced degree in music with an emphasis on the sacred? I can read chant, but I can't really explain it. Music in a vacuum seems silly and meaningless to me, and yet, in most "mainstream" Catholic churches, the status-quo is unacceptable to me. If there's not a way to learn more about sacred music as it fits in the confines of the Mass, Vespers, Benediction, etc... and there's not a place to enact that knowledge, I really don't know why I would stay in the field, despite not having a clue what else I would do with my life.

    I know this board likes to keep things light and jovial, but my friends, I'm really having a hard time, spiritually, professionally, and just as a man. I feel beaten down by the power of the populace and by the meddling of a person who doesn't even know how little she knows. I REALLY appreciate your time and your thoughts. Let us pray for one another!

    @Ruth: I do have a children's choir. On my review in December it mentioned, as one of the strikes against me, that I programmed 'Christus Vincit' for the Solemnity of Christ the King without asking the associate pastor's permission. That is the only Latin I've done in a year and a half, and it was sung during Communion-time. I even dropped the idea of singing the Greek/Latin ICEL chant Mass during Advent and Lent because it seemed wrong to me to pull out Latin chant only during the season of penance.

    @Kathy: The pastor told me, upon my last request to meet with him, that I was to answer to the associate and that "there is NO way (he'd) let me run the program on my own" as he said explicitly that he doesn't trust me. This is night and day from the tone prior to the summer parish council meeting in question and from a lunch my wife and I had with him when he told us of his interest in hiring me. I stayed this year because my family needed my paycheck, which isn't all that much anyway and because I didn't want to earn a reputation as one who would run from a work agreement, signed a few months before everything changed.

    The question isn’t so much whether or not to leave, but what to do and where to go.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Unfortunately, pastors can sell out to influential or wealthy members. However, I think I would have told that one exactly what I thought of him on the way out the door, while using some very unflattering terms. SouthernSam, you need to get the h**l out of that place.
    Thanked by 2Jani SouthernSam
  • Steve QSteve Q
    Posts: 119
    The pastor told me, upon my last request to meet with him, that I was to answer to the associate and that "there is NO way (he'd) let me run the program on my own" as he said explicitly that he doesn't trust me.


    I would not work at any job under those circumstances. Ditto what CharlesW said.
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    If the pastor doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for you, there isn't much hope. I learned this lesson the hard way while I was in high school. I was hired to bring quality organ music to the Saturday Mass at my home parish. The DM (not very skilled) felt threatened. Her mother was on the parish council. You can see where this is heading. I quickly resigned. It was a very painful experience, and sent me on a walk away from the Church for awhile. You deserve better than this. While there will always be some conflict in any position you hold within the Church, you should never have to fear that the boss is not on your side. I'm most definitely with CharlesW on this.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Have you looked into the Sacred Music program at Catholic University in DC?

    Oh, and obviously quit. Although---and this is really sneaky. But, if you're a gambling man, here's an idea. It is really unlikely that they would be able to make it through Lent and Holy Week without you, so it is POSSible that you would not get fired for this right away, which would buy you time to sort out your plans. But it might get you fired. And I wouldn't suggest this if they hadn't shown bloody awful bad faith. But. Why not just do things your way, reasonably, not rocking the boat but without really cooperating with the whole babysitting setup either. Not even pushing back, but just do things normally. So this woman sends you emails. There's a spam filter for that. Just do a good job, show up on Sundays and rehearsal times and do your thing. Smile and nod, smile and nod. For some reason I would find that tons more bearable than the weirdness they're inflicting on you now.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,298
    Or at Notre Dame?
  • SouthernSam,

    " I feel beaten down by the power of the populace and by the meddling of a person who doesn't even know how little she knows. I REALLY appreciate your time and your thoughts. Let us pray for one another! "

    My life experiences have taught me that the LESS a person knows about a certain field, the more certain that (s)he is that (s)he know EVERYTHING about that field.

    My heart aches for you. Be assured that you are in my prayers.

    Deo gratias!
  • If the pastor doesn't trust you why are you in the position? I understand you have a family but you should get out of there as fast as you can the situation sounds toxic. I will keep you in my prayers.
    Thanked by 2Jani SouthernSam
  • lmassery
    Posts: 406
    For the sake of anyone considering the sacred music program at Catholic University, I would like to share this experience I had: 2 years ago I auditioned for their doctorate in Sacred Music and was accepted with a very generous scholarship. Unfortunately, on audition day, I was told that no one had yet graduated from the 'new and improved' program in 10 years. There were 2 students in the program that I met, very talented men, who had been in the program for 10 and 6 years. One said "If I had known it would have taken 10 years, I wouldn't have come. They will find a way to keep you here indefinitely." Dr. Nestor even said "don't come here with the expectation that you'll just do the work, play the recitals, and graduate in 2 or 3 years..." A masters student I met was going on his 4th year in the program and seemed very bitter about it. They seemed afraid to say this in front of Dr. Nestor, and waited until he was not in the room. Dr. Nestor may have started the program, but it seems that he is ruining it as well by holding the students hostage. I wrote to the dean of the music school explaining my concerns about this, and his reply stated that "we are not concerned with when students graduate, just that they get a good education." I think it is reasonable to expect to graduate, don't you? Naturally, I promptly rejected the offer.
  • There are also sacred music graduate level programs at Duquesne and at St. Paul which is in Minnesota. Although the one in Minnesota is a Master in Liturgical Music (don't know how that differs from sacred music).
  • SouthernSam - you need to decide if this is really, truly your calling in life (in other words, if it is time to put all your eggs in this basket). If it is your calling, you have to be willing to move ANYWHERE that you can find a good pastor. YES - there are truly strong and good pastors who want good musicians, and will not give in to the whims of the crowds. There have been a lot of jobs advertised on this forum that are quite good, in terms of vision and support from the pastor. Start looking for jobs today, and applying for them. It sounds to me that there is a general passive-aggressive plan in the parish leadership to get rid of you - if only for that reason, start looking.

    This may be sneaky, but I would advise not telling anyone you are looking - continue to maintain the facade of your current job, with smiles, etc. I have seen people in church positions do the honorable thing (give fair warning that they are looking, rather than just two weeks notice) and get sacked on the spot - at which point they had no window of time to look around. Yes, they had families to support. Sad but true. If nothing else, maintaining a smiling facade drives the passive-aggressive crowd nuts. They will lose sleep at night wondering why they are not getting a rise out of you, in spite of all their efforts to treat you poorly. Then one day (soon, hopefully) you can have the satisfaction of surprising everyone with news of your departure in two weeks. At which point they will pretend to be sad...

    As far as grad school, I think there are two main options:
    1 - find a destination school and look for some subsistence in the area. I would recommend Notre Dame, which has a choral/vocal or organ track, and is completely free if you are accepted. Other options, such as state schools, will be extremely expensive out of state, especially if you have three kids already.
    2 - find a job you can love, and go to the nearest, cheapest school that grants masters degrees in music. If it is not a Catholic school, who cares? Take care of your own education in liturgy and music, through the documents, the forums, the colloquium, etc. If you have moved to a good pastor, he may even pay to send you to such continuing education. For your money, there are many ways to dramatically increase your education without going to a specifically musical school. Find a successful program, and ask the director if you can shadow him/her for a couple of weeks. I just had a friend live in Salt Lake City for a number of weeks, taking detailed notes on the inner workings of the choir school. There are all kinds of options for mentoring and networking, without mortgaging the rest of your life for an expensive school.

    The petty struggles and polititcs of this job don't get any easier with grad degrees. However, with the current crop of young priests and new bishops, there is a good chance that you will be able to find a fulfilling position eventually. Getting at least a masters degree in the process makes it more likely that you will be able to support a family down the road, and work your way into larger and larger positions as you build experience. But that is a long, hard road (especially when you already have kids) - you have to decide, pray, reflect if this is really what you want/are called to do in your life.
    Thanked by 1SouthernSam
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    If you really want to have some fun...At your last mass, play the music you think they deserve. Don't be nice. They don't deserve it.
    Thanked by 2SouthernSam Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Charles, I have to strenuously disagree with the premise of your mirthful suggestion. The Mass, in any case, is not a venue to be trifled with. I know it was offered with sympathy, but I couldn't let it pass without mention that, again, the Mass isn't about..."us."
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    God bless you and your work, SouthernSam. I ran into a similar situation a few years ago---pastor hired me (as a music teacher) with good intentions and promises, even praised me in his bulletin letter, and then crumpled against parishioners and parents complaints, and that one was a one-year position for me! The best thing you can do, for your family, your mental health, and your own soul, is to get out of there as quickly as possible. As kirchenmusik mentioned, they may be orchestrating your departure already----it certainly happened to me. Good luck! I'll keep you in my prayers.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Yes, Charles, but there are preludes and postludes. Go out with blazing tremolos and fiery trumpets.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • @melofluent If I understood Sam correctly, these people have an adverse reaction to doing "sacred" music. What would be the problem with what CharlesW suggested, in doing what he originally intended, for the community to experience that music. If he is on his way out, and his last Mass is going to be a good one, give them one last chance to hear music that is proper to the Mass. I don't see how that is "trifling with the mass".
    Thanked by 1SouthernSam
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Exactly! Give them all the music they didn't want to hear and make it memorable.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    My bad! Wet noodle and a poodle hair shirt for me today, gentlepeople.
  • To all who wondered:
    I stay at this current job because my position is half-time with the connecting K-8 school. I enjoy the school end of it, in so far as it hasn't been colored by the parish (though some of it has); it's just the 3 days a week that I have to work in the parish that's been so difficult. I've had success in the school and with the various classes, soloists and choirs that have come from there.

    @CharlesW: I like your comment about former directors leaving. The funny thing, this woman wasn't the former director. She was a fill-in and had played the piano for several years under the former director. The former director died in November; the woman-in-question served as interim director until I could begin my position in August. She is the same woman who wrote me a nasty email my first Saturday at the parish, accusing me of moving the drummer's drums from the back room, (since they were no longer there) and that the move was "a slap in the face" and that "I have lost the greatest support I could have ever had." The problem? The drummer moved those drums back to his house when his son moved out for college. I had to frantically call around that morning, looking for the name of the drummer so that I could get her off my back. That was my 6th day on the job. Every week since there is at least one or two emails of similar absurdity.

    @all: Thank you! I really am thankful for you all. My wife and I are going to start a novena tonight for the purpose of discernment as to where we should go and what we should do. Has anyone ever taken a year break from this church work to "recapture that "loving feeling""?
  • lmassery,

    I happen to know one of the men who has graduated from that PhD program, though it was only recently and yes, he was there for quite some time. I don't think that's the norm, though.

    I did my Masters there in 2 years (finished in 2005), as did a few of my classmates. No, they don't really encourage you to do it that way; it's more geared toward people who are living in the area and are working part- or full-time. I did, however, receive a great education while there.
    Thanked by 1lmassery
  • Director - mother on parish council - pastor.

    When Sheep Attack.

    Dennis Maynard has a new edition coming out that includes section on musicians.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    SouthernSam, I hope you're keeping a file with a paper trail of these absurd e-mails!
  • @chonak: Yes I am! I have a file especially devoted to her... :) It won't do me a lot of good with the powers that be (since they seem to be fine with all of it) but it does give me the ability to look myself in the mirror, smile a little bit, and kiss my wife when I get home and still have some self-assuredness of my own value and worth in God's eyes.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    Well, if you are fortunate enough to get a new pastor at some point, that may help you cut out the middleman and deal with him directly.