Tackling Dom Mocquerueau, and the usefulness of videos
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    For those of you who are trying to be systematic in learning about chant, I was tackling Dom Mocquereau's STUDY OF GREGORIAN RHYTHM, and two things struck me. I asked an expert, and he gave me the answers I suspected were true.

    1) The theoretical stuff at the beginning is very 19th Century. ("Thus, it is clear to all what is manifestly demonstrated by a thorough analysis of all available music throughout history and cannot be denied by any person with clear vision...")

    It can be chucked.

    Skip the first 100 pages unless you are an antiquarian.

    I went through nearly all of it before I realized that he was proving a pair of words he invented were the same as another pair of words he invented. If you have taken any music theory at all, you know that music can be broken down into groups of two and three. That's pretty much it. Skip to his explanation of neumes.

    2) Anyone reading the score of a Mass in the L. Usualis or wherever while listening to the current Vatican choir will get a headache, at least if you are trying to stick to what you learn from Dom Mocquereau. According to my expert friend, the Solesmes rules for interpretation are for pedagogical use. We have advanced enough that choir directors are developing their own interpretations.

    Which underlines my desire that everyone make videos of all Chant performances--it would form an invaluable resource for someone trying to understand interpretation.

    Kenneth
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Amen, sister! Skip it.

    The flipside of this is that it's pointless to debate the interpretation of the ictus, the dot, or the episema, since he's the one who put them there. You can either accept what he says, or not. There's really no middle ground. If you want to drink that Kool-Aid, read this book and skip the rest.

    I just discovered the extensive recordings by the Chicago Benedictines. They use the Vatican edition melodies (not the AISCGre melodic restitutions), but follow the rhythm of the Laon and St. Gall manuscripts. They obviously spend a lot of time studying and rehearsing the music.
    Thanked by 1amindthatsuits
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    I have found that the rules form Solesmes are good when you are teaching chant and when you have a group of singers who are unfamiliar with chant. That being said the theory is beyond most of them so I usually skip the heavy duty stuff and just teach them a little bit about the counting and the common neumes. What I found most useful for myself at the beginning of my own study of chant was practising the scale exercises for each mode. There are some good ones at the back of the Justine Ward book. It's boring but pays off later and a little bit goes a long way. Then just jump into singing chant, really mellismatic chant like the Graduals and Alleluias, you will be amazed at how much your voice improves and your understanding of how to sing chant improves as well. Listen to good chant scholas, the recordings at Corpus Christi Watershed are great!
    Thanked by 3Paul F. Ford CHGiffen amindthatsuits
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,161
    I have been teaching the modes' sound using Susan Hellauer's "Modes by Ear" melodies, instead of "mere" modal scales. (But not to Susan's words "protus authenticus" etc etc, rather to Alleluia or Kyrie elesion.). This has worked well for all kinds of beginners. It is how I start.

    Then I go on to teach chants from the four-line staff, but still very much by ear as well, dealing with notation questions as they arise. (Sometimes this results in people trying to sing the clefs, but hey.)

    I always thought the Mocquereau stuff was probably over-confident nonsense, although I put it down to his being French rather than 19th century.
    Thanked by 3Paul F. Ford CHGiffen amindthatsuits
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    Um, sister?

    I am glad to know that there is an explanation for the Vatican sound. I had thought, when a cantor did a graduale, that he was just singing free recitative. Then the full choir sang something using exactly the same system at Christmas, which is what inspired me to ask my expert friend.

    I had to look up AISGre--that's Italian for International Studies of Gregorian Chant Association, which would be worded differently in English, and there is no English section listed. This raises another point: I like to post things for newbies, and this one fascinates me. What is the difference between the Solesmes rhythm, and the Laon/St. Gall system?

    Whatever the Vatican is doing makes much more sense musically. There has to be a reason for the porrectus and the quilisma, as they could be written just as square notes if they were to be counted as a series of single beats. I refer to them as "swoop" and "squiggle" for my voice teacher, who understands the sound of Chant very well but just knows the introduction to the LUsualis, and she intuited something very like what the Vatican choir does.

    So...what is the Laon method?

  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Sometimes I wonder if this whole hyper-emphasis on the rhythm theory and the ictus is the result of a copyright dispute. The Vatican edition came out, cutting Solesmes out of the market. They produced their own edition in order to recopyright it and had to point to value added material in theirs as versus Pothier. I'm not saying that Mocq didn't believe that these markings were good, only that the disproportionate emphasis on them might have stemmed from competitive motivations.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    I'm still not clear--so my Vatican Edition of the Liber Usualis is not Solesmes? And where do I learn the system that the new choir director at the Vatican is using---just listen to his stuff? The "rules for interpretation" are not that detailed.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    And branches of the Church compete, when did that ever happen?-- asks a college teacher surrounded by Dominicans and Franciscans.
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 494
    Kenneth, the Solesmes Editions have the Solesmes rhythmic markings (dot, ictus, episema). The Vatican Edition of the Graduale Romanum is the same as the Solesmes edition except it doesn't have the rhythmic markings added by Solesmes. All versions of the Liber Usualis are Solesmes editions. Won't say anything about the merits of the neo-Solesmes method (the method established by Dom Mocquereau) except that like in anything else, it's best to learn from those who are experts rather than those who obviously don't know anything about it.
    Thanked by 1amindthatsuits
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    More the merrier, in my opinion, so I am working through all the practical stuff he wrote. The theory, I either know or am learning from more modern methods.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Um... it's an expression.

    For background, check out Pierre Combe's The Restoration of Gregorian Chant: Solesmes and the Vatican Edition.

    For articles on the melodic restitutions, the rhythmic notation of Laon and St. Gall, etc., you can check out my (sometimes cheeky) chant blog at euouae.com.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    There is a new book coming out in a couple of months that addresses Jeffrey's very speculations. Sounds wonderful (I read some of the typescript at a conference last summer):

    Check it out here.
  • Ruth Lapeyre
    Posts: 341
    Doug this is very interesting. I am currently reading Katherine Bergeron's book Decadent Enchantments and she has spent quite a bit of time discussing publishing and printing issues. Quite frankly I was wondering just where she was going with this but it seems the story of just how we got these editions is more broad than I would have expected.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Exactly. I see this new book as a very large addendum to and re-interpretation of some of the materials Bergeron used.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    There's also a wonderful little guide to chant that includes Laon and St Gall by Dom Columba Kelley, OSB. "Singing Chant : Latin and English/A Performance Manual" Its in the Liturgical Music section of St. Meinrad's website
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • Unda_Maris
    Posts: 53
    For those of you who are struggling with neumes, ictus, episema, etc. and the Solesmes method of singing chant, I HIGHLY recommend the text "A Gregorian Chant Masterclass" written by the late Dr. Theodore Marier. Dr. Marier was an exponent in the Solesmes method and had studied with Dom Gajard, OSB at Solesmes--who had studied with Dom Mocqureau. Dr. Marier clearly lays out the very basics in his text for easy comprehension. A CD recording accompanies the text with demonstrations of some of the chants presented in the book. The book is published by the Abbey of Regina Laudis, 273 Flanders Rd., Bethlehem, CT 06751. You may write to them at that address or visit their website to obtain copies: www.abbeyofreginalaudis.com

    I was fortunate enough to sing in the men's schola at the Boston Archdiocesan Choir School for 10 yrs. under Dr. Marier's direction. His musical artistry as a conductor, organist, composer and teacher is the stuff liturgical music legends are made of!

    I hope this resource will be helpful to those who wish to pursue it.

  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Unda_Maris, I believe GIA also sells that DVD.
  • Unda_Maris
    Posts: 53
    Paul -- Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware GIA sold a DVD as well.
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    I think it is GIA ... but let me know if I am not remembering correctly.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If Chironomy is based upon conducting groups of two and three...
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    Well, "where two and three are gathered in my name..." etc.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
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