If propers are so important, why are Protestants singing hymns?
  • Can someone explain when and why denominations chose, as they split off, to not sing propers?

    The further you get from the liturgical ideal, the less the service looks "Catholic". Where and when did this happen?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I really think Martin Luther had a lot to do with the changes from propers to hymnody, at least in the Lutheran tradition. By the time of Calvin, psalm singing became the big thing. The Protestant "Reformers" were big on active participation, too. Does that tell you anything? I have often said - and disagree with me if you like - that what the Protestants were not able to change in the Catholic Church at the time of Trent, the protestanized Catholics were able to accomplish in the 1960s.
  • By the time of Calvin, psalm singing became the big thing.

    Yet isn't it pretty much a huge insult to the entire institution of the propers to imply in this way that they are the opposite of singing psalms? Perhaps thinking through the incongruity of such a conception will help explain why people were willing to jettison the propers (in the form in which they existed at the time).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    It seems to me that both the Protestants and many Catholics after Vatican II, wanted to get as far away from traditional Catholicism as possible. I remember the 60s quite well, and it was almost something of a political statement to reject what had been.
  • donr
    Posts: 971

    At the time of the Reformation - in the 16th Century - the reformers wanted the liturgy to be said in the vernacular. They also insisted upon hymns which could be understood and sung by the people, and they wished to get away from plainchant hymnody, most of which could only be performed by monks.

    The reformers demanded that the new hymns should have a strictly scriptural basis and they therefore began to introduce metrical versions of the psalms - where the psalms were given a rhyme and rhythm and verse structure - making them easy to sing and understand. Take The Lord's my shepherd for example. In doing so they began the divide between metrical psalms and hymns which caused so much controversy in the Anglican church in the 18th and 19th Centuries.


    Here is the complete article.
  • It seems to me that both the Protestants and many Catholics after Vatican II, wanted to get as far away from traditional Catholicism as possible.

    It strikes me that it would be more accurate to say that they wanted to get away from *then-contemporary* Catholicism, and in certain respects -- the ressourcement referenced in donr's quotation, e.g. -- return to traditional Catholicism.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Here is his take on Catholic Hymns.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Catholicism in the U.S. has always seemed a bit different than the rest of the world, even in the 1960s before the Council. But I think there is a mindset out there among many Catholics, that views plainchant as a relic of a bygone age that needs to stay bygone. Just because we like it doesn't many everyone else does. Many Catholics don't find it spiritually rewarding or even pleasant to hear. How much the clock can be turned back is anyone's guess, but it seems to me that many places will never accept what was and have moved in other directions.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yikes, FNJ, they've been maxxing out on this supposed Lutherian admonishment for over half a millenia:
    Why should the Devil have all the good tunes? That's how they eventually "got" Stryper fronting for Metallica.
    C'mon, ask a better "Trivial Pursuit" question..

    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • You may be surprised that this was a serious question!

    Is there nothing out there that explains the gradual shift aside from the anecdotes?

    I've set BOLD to a couple of interesting points.

    WIKI Source:
    The development of Christian hymnody

    Thomas Aquinas, in the introduction to his commentary on the Psalms, defined the Christian hymn thus: "Hymnus est laus Dei cum cantico; canticum autem exultatio mentis de aeternis habita, prorumpens in vocem." ("A hymn is the praise of God with song; a song is the exultation of the mind dwelling on eternal things, bursting forth in the voice.")[4]

    The Protestant Reformation resulted in two conflicting attitudes to hymns. One approach, the regulative principle of worship, favoured by many Zwinglians, Calvinists and some radical reformers, considered anything that was not directly authorised by the Bible to be a novel and Catholic introduction to worship, which was to be rejected. All hymns that were not direct quotations from the Bible fell into this category. Such hymns were banned, along with any form of instrumental musical accompaniment, and organs were ripped out of churches. Instead of hymns, biblical psalms were chanted, most often without accompaniment, to very basic melodies. This was known as exclusive psalmody. Examples of this may still be found in various places, including in some of the Presbyterian churches of western Scotland.

    The other Reformation approach, the normative principle of worship, produced a burst of hymn writing and congregational singing. Martin Luther is notable not only as a reformer, but as the author of many hymns including Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott (A Mighty Fortress Is Our God), which is sung today even by Catholics, and Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ (Praise be to You, Jesus Christ) for Christmas. Luther and his followers often used their hymns, or chorales, to teach tenets of the faith to worshipers. The first Protestant hymnal was published in Bohemia in 1532 by the Unitas Fratrum. Count Zinzendorf, the Lutheran leader of the Moravian Church in the 18th century wrote some 2,000 hymns. The earlier English writers tended to paraphrase biblical texts, particularly Psalms; Isaac Watts followed this tradition, but is also credited as having written the first English hymn which was not a direct paraphrase of Scripture.[5] Watts (1674–1748), whose father was an Elder of a dissenter congregation, complained at age 16, that when allowed only psalms to sing, the faithful could not even sing about their Lord, Christ Jesus. His father invited him to see what he could do about it; the result was Watts' first hymn, "Behold the glories of the Lamb."[6] Found in few hymnals today, the hymn has eight stanzas in common meter and is based on Revelation 5:6, 8, 9, 10, 12.[7]

    Relying heavily on Scripture, Watts wrote metered texts based on New Testament passages that brought the Christian faith into the songs of the church. Isaac Watts has been called "the father of English hymnody," but Erik Routley sees him more as "the liberator of English hymnody," because his hymns, and hymns like them, moved worshipers beyond singing only Old Testament psalms, inspiring congregations and revitalizing worship.[8]

    Later writers took even more freedom, some even including allegory and metaphor in their texts.

    Charles Wesley's hymns spread Methodist theology, not only within Methodism, but in most Protestant churches. He developed a new focus: expressing one's personal feelings in the relationship with God as well as the simple worship seen in older hymns. Wesley wrote:

    Where shall my wondering soul begin?
    How shall I all to heaven aspire?
    A slave redeemed from death and sin,
    A brand plucked from eternal fire,
    How shall I equal triumphs raise,
    Or sing my great deliverer's praise.


    Wesley's contribution, along with the Second Great Awakening in America led to a new style called gospel, and a new explosion of sacred music writing with Fanny Crosby, Lina Sandell, Philip Bliss, Ira D. Sankey, and others who produced testimonial music for revivals, camp meetings, and evangelistic crusades. The tune style or form is technically designated "gospel songs" as distinct from hymns. Gospel songs generally include a refrain (or chorus) and usually (though not always) a faster tempo than the hymns. As examples of the distinction, "Amazing Grace" is a hymn (no refrain), but "How Great Thou Art" is a gospel song. During the 19th century the gospel-song genre spread rapidly in Protestantism and, to a lesser but still definite extent, in Roman Catholicism; the gospel-song genre is unknown in the worship per se by Eastern Orthodox churches, which rely exclusively on traditional chants (a type of hymn).

    The Methodist Revival of the 18th century created an explosion of hymn-writing in Welsh, which continued into the first half of the 19th century. The most prominent names among Welsh hymn-writers are William Williams Pantycelyn and Ann Griffiths. The second half of the 19th century witnessed an explosion of hymn tune composition and choir singing in Wales.[9]

    Along with the more classical sacred music of composers ranging from Mozart to Monteverdi, the Catholic Church continued to produce many popular hymns such as Lead, Kindly Light, Silent Night, O Sacrament Divine and Faith of our Fathers.

    Many churches today use contemporary worship music which includes a range of styles often influenced by popular music. This often leads to some conflict between older and younger congregants (see contemporary worship). This is not new; the Christian pop music style began in the late 1960s and became very popular during the 1970s, as young hymnists sought ways in which to make the music of their religion relevant for their generation.

    This long tradition has resulted in a wide variety of hymns. Some modern churches include within hymnody the traditional hymn (usually describing God), contemporary worship music (often directed to God) and gospel music (expressions of one's personal experience of God). This distinction is not perfectly clear; and purists remove the second two types from the classification as hymns. It is a matter of debate, even sometimes within a single congregation, often between revivalist and traditionalist movements.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Well, there were those crazy ex-nuns who left the convent to, "make a difference in the world," who showed up with guitars one Sunday morning. Michael row the boat ashore...
  • Noel,

    Using Wiki-anything diminishes your credibility.

    What gets lost in all the stuff you quoted,so far as I can tell, is that when the "reformers" rejected the faith and the nature of the Mass, they rejected that which was proper to it.

    While I duck, and wait for the arrows to fly, I'll reflect on the many qualities of chant which the reformers simply couldn't abide.

    Byrd and Tallis composed in Catholic style, allowing more than one note per syllable; when Tallis composed in Protestant style (say, in "If ye love me", he switched to English, and used a much more reserved, simple style.

    Aquinas composed the propers for the Feast of Corpus Christi, which consisted of a mix of hymns and other chants -- but notice that while he used a hymn, he composed it in the language of worship, not the language of the common folk.

    Why have an offertory chant when the offertory no longer matters?

  • -----> <------ Your arrows! My credibility has nothing to do with this. I merely threw WIKI in to open the door to learn more. I note that there are three distinctions among Christians about what a hymn is - the last paragraph; the contemporary music "problem" crosses denominational lines; some introduced allegory and metaphor.<br />
    Trust me, in a Protestant church the offertory really, really matters!

    Did propers remain in use and gradually be replaced in other denominations or were they chucked out the door like statues of saints in the 1960's?

    The WIKI provides a view from another side. >---->
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    If I recall correctly, when the liturgy shifted to English, there were no English propers in existence. It seems they were not translated until years later. By then, many had forgotten about them, and the truly young folks had never heard them.
  • Did splinter churches, such as the German Old Catholics, preserve the propers? I played for the Frankfurt, Germany congregations in 1969 and at that point the entire Mass was, as it had been for years, in German and at that point they sang hymns.
  • There were in fact English Chant Graduals written and published in the 1960's. However, no-one was interested in chant and the fashion was for folk-style music sung to strumming guitars.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Didn't see any of them in this part of the world. In fact, it was about nine years before I saw an English Gradual. By then, few cared.
  • I'm looking much further back....ignoring what happened in the Catholic church. It would seem to be interesting to see what conflict accompanied the move to hymns in other denominations...but maybe that's just something of interest to me.

    Here's what Luther seems to have been up to with liturgy - two forms.

    This goes way beyond "all the good tunes". I'm immediately bothered by his changes.

    A bit more scholarly of an approach.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    The propers all being in Latin probably had a good deal to do with it...
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    It seems to me that the Catholic Church did a bungled job of dealing with the Protestants, due in part, to its own incompetent leadership. Trent did try to correct much of this and in turn, created a new set of problems. Had the Church at Trent dealt with genuine reform of the liturgy and produced accurate and beautiful vernacular translations, the pent-up craziness that exploded in the sixties might not have happened - or might not have been so extreme. Of course, the Church froze things in place and kicked the can down the road. My two cents is that inept leadership in the Catholic Church did as much to advance Protestantism as did Luther.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    FACT: The English Hymnal (1906 and subsequent editions) have a complete listing of Sunday Propers (in "Prayer Book" English, of course). I was a little floored when I found it.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    In a way, Adam, that's not greatly surprising. The Anglicans, and English in general, did a better job of preserving and maintaining music than most other Protestants. Many of them continue to do so today.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    And what do we say of the Byzantines?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Some of us are Catholic. Even the Orthodox Byzantines have not been classified by the western church as Protestants. We just kept what we always had, with some minor revisions - nothing drastic. Even if some ever did want major changes, we are too decentralized to ever agree on them. Mention change in Orthodoxy, and the reply is usually, "That would take a pan-Orthodox council." It will never happen.
  • cgz: "Using Wiki-anything diminishes your credibility."
    Uh, would that include cpdl?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Or IMSLP?
  • Or....the ENTIRE INTERNET & MUSICA SACRA!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Wikipedia is much more reliable than it once was. I used to not allow my students to reference it, but later changed that.